<    March 2017    >
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa  
          1  2  3  4  
 5  6  7  8  9 10 11  
12 13 14 15 16 17 18  
19 20 21 22 23 24 25  
26 27 28 29 30 31
01:10 kaiyou joined
01:19 andypost joined
01:19 Meeh joined
01:20 Meeh joined
01:21 blueness joined
01:22 Meeh joined
01:23 Meeh joined
01:45 Meeh joined
01:47 Meeh joined
01:50 Meeh joined
01:51 Meeh joined
01:54 Meeh joined
01:55 Meeh joined
02:35 s33se joined
03:55 czart_ joined
04:01 tmh1999 joined
04:28 blueness joined
06:30 t0mmy joined
07:11 vakartel joined
07:24 minimalism joined
07:29 diego_ joined
07:33 diego_ left
07:52 t0mmy joined
07:56 blueness joined
08:20 stwa joined
08:29 kaiyou joined
08:40 <ScrumpyJack> Morning. Happy Friday!
09:22 fekepp joined
09:46 royger joined
09:46 blueness joined
10:45 blueness joined
11:02 vakartel joined
11:33 blueness joined
12:17 slukin joined
12:48 <pickfire> Actually, why is /etc/alpine-release useful?
12:49 <pickfire> I see no reason to duplicated the content of /etc/os-release
12:57 <^7heo> pickfire: the reason is to have an easy to parse version for use by alpine scripts
12:57 <^7heo> and os-release is for interoperability
12:57 blueness joined
12:57 <pickfire> Lol
12:58 <^7heo> ?!
12:58 <pickfire> ^7heo: Alpine script can always . /etc/os-release
12:59 <^7heo> yeah
12:59 <^7heo> and if it's not in shell
12:59 <^7heo> it can always implement a shell parser, too, right?
12:59 <^7heo> like, I dunno, from C.
12:59 <^7heo> such a good idea.
13:01 tty` joined
13:34 <ncopa> vakartel: the hpn patches for openssh was disabled by mistake. we should not remove them
13:34 <ncopa> have a nice weekend everyone!
13:34 <scadu> lel
13:37 leitao joined
13:51 <^7heo> damn I really am failing to see what's so funny, those days.
13:51 <^7heo> "Hello"
13:51 <^7heo> "lol"
13:51 <^7heo> Is everyone high or?
13:54 xfix joined
14:00 <pickfire> Yeah, from C then complicated.
14:05 farosas joined
14:42 cyteen joined
15:09 Fooster joined
15:38 skarnet joined
17:03 BitL0G1c joined
17:08 pavlix joined
17:09 <pavlix> hi
17:10 <pavlix> let's say I would like to be able to build my own installation image... I would like to preconfigure wifi and SSH including authorized_keys... all that in a reliable and reproducible way
17:10 <pavlix> so that I can easily rebuild it for another network and another SSH user
17:10 <pavlix> what's the best starting point?
17:11 <pavlix> (I do expect some work to be done before it's ready.)
17:30 mikeee_ joined
17:37 dmp42__ joined
17:37 jakedt_ joined
17:37 squaremo_ joined
17:38 feepo_ joined
17:40 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Good morning - I'm currently working on building out the image building system.
17:40 ^7heo_ joined
17:41 pickfire_ joined
17:41 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I have mkimage modularized and I'm currently working on advancing the overlay building significantly
17:43 asie joined
17:43 iamthemcmaster joined
17:43 hl joined
17:44 Somasis joined
17:44 Somasis joined
17:44 coredumb joined
17:44 <pavlix> TemptorSent: So what is the status, can one try it already and tweak it to their liking or not?
17:46 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Not quite finished yet, but if you want to lend some eyeballs and some shell script, I could use the help.
17:46 <pavlix> TemptorSent: If you don't mind that I can only lend little time of mine, then I could...
17:47 MH0815 joined
17:49 <TemptorSent> pavlix: No problem, I have much the same needs.
17:50 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Hang on a sec, let me get my current work ready to commit and I'll post it.
17:59 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Sure.
18:03 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I'm almost done with the bulk of the coding for the overlays, but haven't tested any of that yet, so it's currently not going to work as is (barring a random miracle, of course :) )
18:07 <TemptorSent> pavlix: There is still a fair bit of refactoring to be done and cleanup of naming before it's ready to stick a fork in.
18:09 <jirutka> TemptorSent: you don’t need anything special to build an Alpine image; just apk and chroot
18:11 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Sure, it's possible to manually build an image, but certainly not fast, easily reproducable, or particularly convenient.
18:11 <jirutka> not manually
18:12 <TemptorSent> jirutak: We're talking not just the packages, but the overlay, kernel config, initfs config, modules, etc.
18:13 <jirutka> have you looked into https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/tree/master/.travis/ ?
18:13 <TemptorSent> jirutak: If you have only one configuration to deal with, it's fine, but if you need to build multiple images, it's painful.
18:14 <TemptorSent> jirtutka: I'm working on aports/mkimage.
18:14 <jirutka> hm, maybe I’ll understand once I try your tool
18:14 <jirutka> currently I don’t see how fakeroot can help with this
18:15 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Fakeroot allows the overlays to be built with the desired permissiions and ownership propigated to the overlay tarball.
18:17 <jirutka> have you discussed it with fabled? IIRC he said that fake-root is just a huge hack and he plans to move into another solution
18:19 <pavlix> jirutka: Long time no see.
18:20 <jirutka> pavlix: yeah…
18:21 <jirutka> pavlix: I assume that we’ll see each other tomorrow at InstallFest…?
18:21 <pavlix> jirutka: I'm definitely going to stop by and probably both of the days.
18:22 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Yes, I have been talking with fabled on the mkimage work.
18:22 <jirutka> pavlix: me too, at least to Petr’s talk about Alpine and Pavel’s talk about Rust
18:22 <jirutka> TemptorSent: good good
18:22 <pavlix> jirutka: I haven't looked at the schedule, yet, I'm mostly going because of the people.
18:23 <jirutka> pavlix: me too, there are not many interesting talks for me
18:24 <pavlix> jirutka: I'm looking at your .travis scripts, by the way. but I don't know what to make of it, yet.
18:24 <jirutka> unfortunately it’s like a typical Czech conference, most of the talks are just about hyped technologies from their users or PR talks by companies :/
18:25 <jirutka> pavlix: these in aports repo are a bit outdated, I’ll rewrite it to reuse https://github.com/jirutka/alpine-chroot-install/
18:25 <pavlix> jirutka: You can't expect another FOSDEM in CZ, right? :D
18:25 <jirutka> pavlix: why not? :P
18:26 <pavlix> jirutka: Because it's a unique conference with its history and stuff like that... many people only come to Europe for FOSDEM.
18:26 <jirutka> pavlix: maybe LinuxDays will become a smaller FOSDEM someday, this year most of the talks will be in English and many foreign speakers
18:27 <pavlix> jirutka: Whatever. I'm not going to search for my crystal ball today. :)
18:27 <jirutka> pavlix: do you know what I’d like to see? a conference with talks about ideas, not about products
18:28 <pavlix> jirutka: Then you're not a typical conference visitor, I'm afraid.
18:28 <pavlix> jirutka: But you can still create such a conference, or create such a track at LinuxDays.
18:29 <jirutka> most of the talks are like “hey, I’ve found Ansible few months ago and I use it for my servers, it’s super cool and I must tell you how cool it is… well, no, I’ve never used another similar tool, I don’t have an idea how it actually works and how it can be solved in another way…”
18:32 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Okay, here's a patchset against the aports/scripts/mkimage: http://termbin.com/zp0n
18:34 Tsutsukakushi joined
18:34 triple joined
18:35 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Take a look at the above, it probalby makes more sense in context.
18:36 <pavlix> TemptorSent: It looks pretty big for a person who wasn't in the project before.
18:37 Tsutsukakushi joined
18:37 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeh, I had a need and I started coding to meet it... then I found out that the old alpine-iso system was depreciated, so I started over with mkimage :)
18:38 <pavlix> :)
18:38 <pavlix> TemptorSent: That sounds like a good idea.
18:39 <jirutka> ufff, that’s too big, can’t review it
18:39 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Are the changes intended to be accepted upstream in any form near the current status?
18:40 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Hopefully after cleanups most of it can be upstreamed.
18:41 farosas_ joined
18:42 <TemptorSent> pavlix: It needs to be at least on parity for building release images obviously, as well as settle down on naming before it's ready for the tree. Fabled has similar needs to ours, so he's interested in seeing a solution move forward.
18:42 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Are you going to use it yourself before getting it merged?
18:42 <TemptorSent> pavlix: There is also a scope of work to be attacked in modularizing mkinitfs.
18:43 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'm interested in the classic RAID+LVM+initramfs setup as well, have you considered that?
18:43 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yes, I have an immediate need for the ability to burn custom images for a client, so it's going to be in use.
18:43 <pavlix> TemptorSent: If you're going to actually use it, it would be good to keep a occasionally rebased version at some public Git service.
18:43 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Already started on the work needed to handle that.
18:44 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Agreed, I want to get it usable before dumping on github or whatnot.
18:44 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Now that sounds great. The scripts don't do RAID6 which I thing is a trivial change...
18:44 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Plus it doesn't do single-partition software raid with LVM and rootfs on it
18:45 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'm talking about setup-disk.
18:45 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Take a look at the features and overlays systems.
18:45 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Where/why?
18:46 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I haven't attacked the setup-disk portion yet, as that's beyond the image building for the moment.
18:47 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Yep. But if you're going to do RAID/LVM/initramfs/rootfs, you'll probably be interested in disk installation as well, right?
18:47 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Apply the patch to a branch on a convenient aports tree.
18:47 <pavlix> TemptorSent: In my experience a published branch works better than a patch or patchset, because it stays the same until it gets rebased and updated.
18:47 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Actually, one of my big needs is to be able to build a fully configured media-based boot system.
18:48 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I've done this with https://pagure.io/fork/pavlix/koji/branch/python3
18:48 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Agreed, I just mean for taking a look at how the system works.
18:48 <pavlix> TemptorSent: What do you mean by media-based boot system?
18:48 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Drop an iso to a dvd, stick in server, boot :)
18:48 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I can probably just look at the patch and wait for the published branch if that's going to happen.
18:49 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Boot and then what?
18:49 <TemptorSent> pavlix: The patch makes the directory-structre refactor rather less than clear I'm afraid.
18:49 <jirutka> 1. Boot, 2. ???, 3. Profit! XD
18:50 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Run from ram, mounting storage and running services, with all configuration stored seperately.
18:50 <pavlix> jirutka: Yep. :) TemptorSent described the technical part of booting the system from media (which you can already do somehow) and left out the actual focus.
18:50 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Just configuration or installed packages and stuff like that?
18:53 <TemptorSent> pavlix: My application is a zfs-based storage/KVM server, so it will boot to the initfs, mount up the storage, export it, and run the VMs. Configuation is handled with overlays only, just like the media-based environment currently does.
18:53 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'm not going to have a similar use case, though.
18:53 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Kernel upgrades look just like building the original image.
18:54 <jirutka> TemptorSent: hmm, interesting, this reminds me the project at vpsFree I’m involved in
18:54 <pavlix> jirutka: vpsFree also somewhat favors ZFS over Btrfs and anything else... :)
18:54 <TemptorSent> pavlix: No problem, the point of modularizing the build system was to allow for significant flexability in the profiles.
18:54 <pavlix> TemptorSent: +1
18:55 <TemptorSent> pavlix: The other side project is a rpi based WX station and camera :)
18:55 <pavlix> TemptorSent: :)
18:56 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I have one „side“ project to get ready to freelance after five years of employment. :D
18:56 <TemptorSent> pavlix: The fun part is the VM images will be built by the same tool, so I can package an iso with the running fs AND the initial VM image.
18:56 <jirutka> pavlix: yes, unfortunately, I don’t like ZFS… but that’s not THE interesting part on this project
18:56 <pavlix> jirutka: I see, the FS is just a backend, right?
18:57 <jirutka> pavlix: yeah
18:57 <TemptorSent> jirutka: What's your flavor? I intend to make FS support essentially transparent going forward.
18:57 <jirutka> TemptorSent: Btrfs and ext4
18:58 <jirutka> TemptorSent: I used to like RaiserFS, but unfortunately its developer is in jail and it seems that he’s not allowed to code here :(
18:58 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I haven't played with btrfs in a number of years now -- how is it looking these days?
18:58 <jirutka> and RaiserFS is currently outdated, can’t use multiple cores for parallelization on operations
18:59 <jirutka> TemptorSent: it looks good, userland tools are quite powerful; but RAID 5/6 is horribly broken
18:59 <jirutka> it eats data
18:59 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Yeah, it's been broken for many years now, and even in it's hayday it only worked well for specific loads (think nntp server)
18:59 <jirutka> other RAIDs should be okay, at least I hope…
19:00 <pavlix> TemptorSent: The patch seems to include a lot of renaming. When on a branch, the renaming would occur in a separate commit and I could see more detailed code changes then.
19:00 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Ouch! Yeah -- that's why I'm sticking with ZFS. I like my data intact.
19:01 <pavlix> jirutka: RAIDs broken that doesn't sound good.
19:01 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I did my best to clean up the commit history so it's clear what's happening, but git doesn't let me explicitly copy files, it just detects them by content.
19:03 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I think only mkimage.sh and mkimage-yaml.sh have stayed in their original location, and the rest have been split apart.
19:03 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I know Git doesn't have any metadata for that, but I simply `git mv` files, commit the moves + any changes needed to keep it working, and only then do more modifications in separate commits.
19:03 <TemptorSent> and mkimage-yaml.sh's days are numbered.
19:04 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Believe it or not, that's what I did in most cases!
19:04 <pavlix> TemptorSent: But then you have multiple commits and not just a big diff.
19:05 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I think part of it is that git is puking on files which only a small portion is retained and the rest deleted while splitting apart.
19:05 <TemptorSent> pavlix: There should be 19 commits there...
19:07 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Splitting is a slightly different story than just moving.
19:08 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Nice. Then I'll be happy to access those as a branch once it's there.
19:08 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Right, which is where git lost it.. I copied the source file to be split to each destination file, commited that, then changed the results.
19:08 <TemptorSent> pavlix: If you apply it to a branch on your tree, it SHOULD have all commits available to peruse.
19:09 <TemptorSent> ...in the mean time, let's see if I can figure out my github login... :)
19:10 <pavlix> TemptorSent: :)
19:12 <TemptorSent> Right about now, I'm ready to shoot whoever killed the gpm package...
19:12 <TemptorSent> Ever try retyping every url by hand between terminals?
19:12 <jirutka> TemptorSent: RAID 1 should be okay; Btrfs is already used in production, not so long as ZFS though
19:14 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Understood. I actually use RAID-Z2 for my important data, with additional duplicates per file if I'm really paranoid.
19:14 <TemptorSent> jirutka: The real win for me on zfs is snapshotting/zfs send :)
19:16 <TemptorSent> jirtuka: The only thing really lacking for me is strong support for flash, especially in direct mode.
19:17 <TemptorSent> jirutka: What drives your preference for Btrfs?
19:19 leo-unglaub joined
19:21 <jirutka> TemptorSent: ZFS is like an alien in Linux, it’s not well integrated
19:21 <jirutka> TemptorSent: ZFS is very inflexible, it doesn’t know anything like rebalancing
19:22 <jirutka> TemptorSent: I don’t usually have spare data storage where I can move all the data just b/c ZFS volumes are like in concrete, you can’t change anything
19:23 <pavlix> jirutka: mimi_vx (usually in #gentoo.cs) is also a big fan of btrfs over zfs
19:23 <pavlix> jirutka: With basically the same arguments, I'd say.
19:23 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Generally, I just add pools as needed or migrate to larger disks.
19:24 <TemptorSent> jirtuka: But yes, it would be nice to easily add storage to an existing zpool and use it without restriping everything.
19:33 <jirutka> I’ve easily expanded RAID1 with single disk to 5 disks and double capacity per disk
19:35 <jirutka> b/c I needed to migrate from ext4 and didn’t have spare space where to copy all data
19:35 <TemptorSent> jirutka: ZFS would have no problem restripng to the added disks transparently actually.
19:35 blueness joined
19:36 <TemptorSent> jirutak: The only problem is adding discs to an existing pool without restriping.
19:45 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Why's gpm not available?
19:46 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Not sure, it probably got dropped because everyone is assumed to be running X?
19:47 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Are they going to drop the VT support as well?
19:47 mikeee_ joined
19:47 <pavlix> :)
19:51 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeah, actually there's been noise about that.
19:52 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Okay, I think I fixed the bugs I introduced in that last refactor... One sec and I'll dump a new patchset
19:53 <TemptorSent> Making sure it actually builds the stuff that worked before :)
19:54 <TemptorSent> My network connection is a slightly glorified set of tin-cans on a wet string :)
19:55 <TemptorSent> Refetching packages takes ages.
20:00 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I was going to fix NetworkManager but haven't got back to it since my initial experiments.
20:00 <pavlix> But that's another story.
20:00 <pavlix> TemptorSent: But I'm tempted to cherry-pick a couple of packages to fix, so it might be something that helps you as well.
20:05 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeah, the fix is replacing the half mile of burried copper with ugly splices with fibre.
20:07 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Downlink speed is almost usable at times (as high as 1M/s when it's doing well), but uplink is UGLY at 100K/s and nasty buffer bloat somewhere, probably the DSLAM.
20:08 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Downloading the kernel and firmware repeatedly takes inordinately long.
20:10 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'm pretty much fortunate that in my country you can get a Wifi link in most places.
20:17 leo-unglaub joined
20:20 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeah, I don't even get a cell signal at my home. I'm a little out in the sticks ;)
20:22 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Yeah, plus now I get LTE as a backup for urgent stuff.
20:27 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Okay, fixing up a couple of bugs so I get the existing builds working right.
20:42 <TemptorSent> pavlix: This actually works (for at least some value of works) - http://termbin.com/uwab
20:56 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Now for the fun, making the overlays work right :)
21:02 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Were you successful with your GitHub account?
21:02 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Anyway, what do you mean by overlays here? Overlay file systems?
21:06 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yes, I found my account, but don't have it configured yet.
21:07 <TemptorSent> pavlix: And yes, overlay filesystems, allowing all configuration to be done in the overlay.
21:11 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I love the layering possibilities.
21:11 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I first work with such a system when using OpenWRT on a router.
21:12 leitao joined
21:14 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yes, it makes life MUCH easier in many cases.
21:23 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'd be happy to use it as an integral part of the system. With tools. You have packages that install stuff to /etc, right, let's install stuff to the system layer. Did I make a change? Let's put that into the config layer on top of the system layer. And now please give me the diff for that file between the overlays. Then you woudn't need all the lennartish /usr/lib and /etc configuration
21:23 <pavlix> directories which is basically a poor man's version of the described use case.
21:23 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Now that I'm leaving my job and more or less leaving Fedora development and stuff like that, it feels so tempting to explore some distros that actually differ in the basic concepts.
21:25 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeah, my *other* system is funtoo :)
21:26 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I was using the earliest versions of gentoo back in the late '90s, moved to funtoo when drobbins forked it.
21:26 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I've been using Gentoo even at Red Hat. :)
21:26 <pavlix> TemptorSent: http://www.abclinuxu.cz/blog/pavlix/2014/2/fedora-packaging-in-gentoo
21:26 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Is Funtoo that much different from Gentoo after all?
21:29 <TemptorSent> pavlix: In some regards, yes -- it has a nice MODULAR profile system (sound familiar?) and some better design decisions.
21:31 <pavlix> TemptorSent: What does that mean? I have a couple of Gentoo overlays, would you be able to use them with Funtoo?
21:32 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yes, the overlays work fine between the two. The big difference is the profile system, which has the ability to have modular inheratance.
21:33 <TemptorSent> pavlix: So you can define your own custom profile with your configuration needs and still track updates to the portage tree.
21:38 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Sounds interesting.
21:38 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'm using some default profile plus a couple of tweaks.
21:38 <pavlix> not much custom stuff
21:45 stwa joined
21:47 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Okay, I have it building overlays and everything... Now I'm just trying to convince tar to strip the leading ./ from the archive.
21:51 <pavlix> TemptorSent: For what purpose?
21:57 <jirutka> DeepStack, the AI that beat top Poker players, is written in Lua and runs on LuaJIT! \o/ They use framework Torch7.
21:57 <algitbot> \o/
21:58 <TemptorSent> pavlix: No actual need, just trying to keep everything clean.
21:59 <pavlix> TemptorSent: So you have an existing tar archive and you want to modify it?
22:00 <TemptorSent> pavlix: No, I was just trying to get tar to strip the leading "./" when generating an archive with that as the filespec.
22:00 fabled_ joined
22:01 <TemptorSent> tar -c -C "$srcdir" "./" | gzip -9n > "$outfile"
22:07 <TemptorSent> pavlix: It works now, I'll leave it alone unless there's a reason to mess with it I guess :)
22:13 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Okay, this appears to be functional, including building overlays: http://termbin.com/s7hc
22:15 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Take a look if you're interested, this is beginning to demonstrate the capabilities.
22:16 <jirutka> TemptorSent: can you show me some scripts using this stuff or something like that?
22:16 <TemptorSent> jirutka: mkimage.sh runs everything!
22:16 <jirutka> also it’d be better to open pull request for it, so we can easily review it
22:17 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Working on getting my github account talking to my dev box.
22:17 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Apparently people have forgotten that some of us don't use any GUI on our development boxes :)
22:18 <jirutka> TemptorSent: no, they don’t…
22:18 <jirutka> TemptorSent: everything you need is just to add your public SSH key from the box to your GH account, that’s all
22:18 <jirutka> you can do it even from CLI, but IMO it’s easier to just use it from web from some computer with GUI
22:19 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Hmm, any docs on how to do it without a browser? Otherwise I get to have fun playing the 4-way shuffle to get a key to github.
22:20 <jirutka> do you have SSH access to that box?
22:20 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Not currently ;) It's a totally stand-alone machine on my network, no connections to any other devices.
22:21 <jirutka> TemptorSent: WAT, so how do you work with it? you’re connected to it directly and looking into a HW terminal?
22:21 <jirutka> is it at least connected to the Internet?
22:22 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Yup, sitting in front of an actual piece of hardware! Yes, it has a live connection to the outside world, but not to any of my other machines.
22:23 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Your configuration is unusual, at the least. :)
22:23 <jirutka> then just copy your SSH pubkey to e.g. to http://tpaste.us/
22:23 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Why don't you just publish out your authorized_keys and then use it from wherever you need.
22:23 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Whoever depreciated gpm should be shot -- retyping everything is a PITA.
22:24 <jirutka> TemptorSent: then just connect via damn SSH and use a modern terminal emulator ;)
22:24 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Untrusted machines on the network :/
22:24 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Your needs are not to be judged by me. ;)
22:25 <TemptorSent> jirutka: No machines with a terminal emulator that even comes close to the usability of a nice big monitor on a hardware console.
22:25 <pavlix> jirutka: When gpm is in unmaintained, what does it mean? That it doesn't get built at all?
22:26 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I flip between a half-dozen VTs instantly.
22:27 <jirutka> TemptorSent: this sounds like that the only terminal emulator you know is cmd.exe or Putty, otherwise it’s just non-sense… or terminal emulator or Linux are MUCH worse than I’ve expected (I use iTerm2 on macOS and it cannot be compared with (un)usability of HW terminal)
22:29 <pavlix> jirutka: I could work with XTerm with a small number of configuration tweaks, to be honest. Now I'm using urxvt. I'd even cope with gnome-terminal, it has some nice features, but I don't really use that much of them when in i3.
22:29 <jirutka> anyway, for example http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/136894/command-line-method-or-programmatically-add-ssh-key-to-github-com-user-account, there is described how to upload your pubkey to GH using curl
22:29 <jirutka> but not sure if you can read StackOverflow on your device :P
22:29 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I've been working from the command line for 30+ years now. I HATE having to touch a mouse, and frankly, term emulators are SLOW.
22:29 blueness joined
22:30 <jirutka> TemptorSent: then you’ll love https://github.com/jwilm/alacritty
22:30 <jirutka> A cross-platform, GPU-accelerated terminal emulator
22:30 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Yeah, I get to retype it into my browser machine (ANCIENT Windoze if you must know)
22:30 <jirutka> I didn’t understand this project until now :) b/c I don’t have any problems with speed of my terminal emulator
22:31 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Looking at it now... looks like it might at least have a chance!
22:31 <jirutka> ah, so I should probably copy the description so you don’t have to retype the URI: Alacritty is the fastest terminal emulator in existence. Using the GPU for rendering enables optimizations that simply aren't possible in other emulators. Alacritty currently supports macOS and Linux, and Windows support is planned before the 1.0 release.
22:33 <TemptorSent> Hmm, it's rusty too.. that makes it even more interesting, thanks!
22:34 <TemptorSent> I guess now I get to figure out how to get X working on the fire pro card in this old dell.
22:37 <TemptorSent> It's a FirePro W5000, which happens to be a Pitcarin card -- not supported in the new series AMD drivers and apparently the older drivers suffer from bit rot and don't like the modern kernels so much.
22:37 <TemptorSent> Sadly, this machine is probably going to end up being relegated back to a drafting workstation soon.
22:38 PeteDaGuru joined
22:40 <pavlix> jirutka: does it have any value on intel based laptops without dedicated graphics?
22:41 <jirutka> pavlix: definitely, every laptop has GPU, just some integrated in processor, but these are quite powerful nowadays and supports even OpenCL
22:42 <jirutka> actually, GPUs in Intel Core supported OpenCL like 6 years ago, maybe even sooner
22:42 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Very cool project! It's about time someone started thinking about usability again.
22:42 <jirutka> yup
22:42 <pavlix> jirutka: Will give it a try on X230 then.
22:42 <jirutka> but still, http://iterm2.com/features.html is winner for me :)
22:43 <jirutka> but I’ll try alacritty, maybe I’ll be surprised and eventually realize that my current terminal emulator is slow
22:44 <TemptorSent> iterm looks pretty cool, but I don't think it would fit my workflow well.
22:45 <jirutka> probably it wouldn’t if you’re so strongly used to HW terminals
22:46 <jirutka> but I wonder how you can use it productively…
22:46 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I have plenty of experience working in GUIs, I just hate it!
22:47 <pavlix> jirutka: In my opinion i3 with some terminal app can be used very closely like a bunch of VTs but better.
22:47 <jirutka> GUIs quite often sucks
22:47 <jirutka> pavlix: agree
22:47 <TemptorSent> jirutka: GUIs a great for doing research, reading pdfs, etc, but when it comes to text, they generally suck.
22:48 <pavlix> I'm very quickly switching workspaces by number and very quickly open a fullscreen terminal there. Plus a second one if I don't want to use tmux and stuff like that.
22:48 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I can have 6 vts going with different users logged in, flip between them instantly, and need essentially nothing for hardware to do it
22:49 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I'm very much of the same blood and use UIs mostly when I'm lacking a CLI/TUI alternative.
22:49 <jirutka> pavlix: i3 is very simple and minimalistic, no bullshits and fancy stuff, so it feels closer to hw terminals, but provides essential multi-window features
22:49 <pavlix> TemptorSent: But still I prefer i3+urxvt or a similar combination over Linux VTs.
22:50 <TemptorSent> Back in the old days, I actually used compiz-fusion to manage a whole crapload of virtual desktops, then set some of those up as full-screen terminals.
22:50 <pavlix> TemptorSent: And yep, I had a really hard time finding something that would fit... I used Gnome, people advised me to try Enlightenment, Awesome, OpenBox, ....
22:51 <pavlix> TemptorSent: All of those projects felt wrong to me in a way. I would say i3 is the first WM that doesn't stand in my way. There are possibly others but I'm happy for now.
22:51 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Enlightment actually was my preferred wm for quite a while because I could get rid of anything I didn't want and still have some nice features.
22:52 <pavlix> TemptorSent: I used e20 or git versions close to that and it felt like Gnome with a lot more options but undocumented. It didn't help me much and it was rather buggy.
22:52 <TemptorSent> pavlix: I'll hve to poke at i3 a bit more, it's been a while since id did the WM-search last.
22:53 <pavlix> TemptorSent: And the binary registry-like config database went down for me once or twice.
22:53 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Wow, up to e20? I think e17 was bleeding edge last I checked.
22:53 <jirutka> uh, binary registry-like config on Linux, this must be killed with fire!
22:54 <pavlix> jirutka: That's Gnome and Enlightenment. :)
22:54 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeah, enlightment has gotten very bloated since the early days.
22:54 <pavlix> jirutka: And both projects are surprisingly so wrong in so many other areas.
22:54 <pavlix> jirutka: I actually have nothing against binary format to be honest, as long as they translate to something I can edit in vim... but they must not break.
22:55 <pavlix> jirutka: Gnome database was stable but inconvenient, Enlightenment one was not safe, and as for journald I lost logs so many times that I just wanted to get rid of it.
22:56 <jirutka> pavlix: I have everything against binary formats *for configuration*
22:56 <TemptorSent> pavlix: Yeah, I can live with parsible binaries in some cases, but there's no reason to keep the entire configuration in binary rather than just a cached version.
22:56 <jirutka> or logs in binary, similarly bad idea
22:56 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Sure.
22:57 <pavlix> jirutka: Logs in binary have so many theoretical advantages that I sort of like the idea. But journald didn't go well for me.
22:57 <pavlix> jirutka: I hate some attributes of line based text logs.
22:57 <TemptorSent> Binary logging -- why?
22:58 <jirutka> TemptorSent: because Lennart…
22:59 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Because each record can have all sorts of metadata. And because with all sorts of metadata, a binary form could be easily accessed very quickly, and because text representation of date is almost always wrong. :)
22:59 <jirutka> TemptorSent: this is what happens when some arrogant incompetent idiot get backed by a huge company like RedHat…
22:59 <pavlix> TemptorSent: If there was a *good* implementation, I would gladly use that.
23:00 <pavlix> TemptorSent: You said it right. He got backed and he was doing everything to get where he is.
23:01 <pavlix> ^ sorry jirutka
23:01 <jirutka> pavlix: yes, it makes sense… until FS corruption… then you can’t read anything…
23:01 <jirutka> pavlix: the exact situation when you need the logs most
23:02 <pavlix> jirutka: With FS corruption you (1) might not be able to read text logs either and (2) having binary logs doesn't prevent you from having selected data exported to text logs as well.
23:03 <jirutka> pavlix: there’s much greater chance that you can read at least parts of the logs
23:03 <pavlix> jirutka: That's why I say that the theoretical concept sounds good to me if it's implemented and deployed in ways that suit your needs.
23:03 <jirutka> pavlix: when they are textual
23:04 <pavlix> jirutka: Anyway, what Lennart achieved is amazing. He now has a lifelong job and he can choose among multiple companies to sponsor that job.
23:04 <jirutka> pavlix: yeah, you’re right, the concept is actually okay, the problem is the current implementation
23:04 <pavlix> jirutka: It is that sort of achievement that is amazing for the achiever, not for the rest of the world.
23:04 <jirutka> pavlix: yes, he helped to destroy Linux, really amazing… of course for him it is…
23:05 <jirutka> pavlix: but let’s stop this topic here
23:05 <pavlix> jirutka: He never cared about Linux and he always hated the open source community.
23:05 <pavlix> jirutka: And he was pretty much open about that.
23:05 <jirutka> pavlix: uh, really?!
23:05 <jirutka> pavlix: omfg, so this may not be just a result of his arrogance and incompetence, but his plan!
23:05 <pavlix> jirutka: Or maybe not always but at least all the time I watch is career and read his blogposts and stuff like that.
23:06 <TemptorSent> *lol* Where's my popcorn? ;)
23:06 <pavlix> jirutka: I wouldn't say plan, rather attitude. Maybe he was capable of planning something, but many things just happened. :)
23:07 <jirutka> doesn’t matter… I really hate him, but didn’t think about the option that he’s actually evil, I just thought that all of this is result of arrogance and incompetency
23:07 <TemptorSent> Anyway, dev question: When setting up my git repo to add my branch to, should I start by forking the alpinelinux/ports head on github?
23:07 <skarnet> of all the mother of offtopics
23:07 <jirutka> okay, switch the topic
23:07 <pavlix> jirutka: Anyway Lennart showed us how weak the open source community was comparing to what we thought.
23:08 <jirutka> pavlix: well, that’s very true, unfortunately :(
23:08 <jirutka> TemptorSent: yes
23:08 <TemptorSent> I'm currently tracking git.alpinelinux.org master for my branch
23:08 <pavlix> jirutka: And Gentoo, Alpine, AntiX and others show that we are still there. :D
23:10 <jirutka> TemptorSent: just click on Fork, add this to your remotes, push into it and use e.g. https://github.com/Idnan/github-pr or similar tool to open PR from the branch
23:10 <jirutka> TemptorSent: then you don’t have to touch web interface anymore
23:10 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Cool, thanks.
23:11 <pavlix> jirutka: And when I think about myself in particular, the events in the past years actually strenghtened my opinion that we need to stay somewhat independent of companies, especially the larger ones, even when we work for them.
23:11 <jirutka> TemptorSent: when someone add a comment, you can reply via email; but you’ll not see a context in email (the line of code relevant to the comment) :/
23:11 <jirutka> TemptorSent: but there are some CLI tools that can help even with that
23:11 <jirutka> pavlix: totally agree!
23:11 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I don't so much mind the web for that sort of stuff, it's the actual coding that kills me.
23:12 <pavlix> jirutka: And there are many people like that working for the companies.
23:13 <jirutka> pavlix: I have just people who don’t understand my distrust towards big companies like Amazon or Google :( all ppl are like “I need to deploy this chat app for few people, I definitely want to use AWS or GCP for that, because they are the biggest, so the most reliable, so the best at all!”
23:14 <pavlix> jirutka: I might be using AWS for some stuff actually. :/ :)
23:15 <jirutka> and I’m always like: “WTF, this doesn’t make sense, these services are quite expensive for this use case and there are plenty of other companies that provides various hostings, why the hell you so insist on supporting only the big ones to create a monopoly?!”
23:16 <pavlix> jirutka: +1
23:16 <pavlix> jirutka: It doesn't make sense to use AWS for non-cloudish use any more than any classic VPS provider.
23:19 <jirutka> yeah
23:32 <TemptorSent> pavlix, jirutka : Have it on github now :) https://github.com/TemptorSent/aports/tree/mkimage-refactor-scripts/scripts/mkimage
23:33 <jirutka> great!
23:34 <jirutka> what time is now in USA? :)
23:34 <TemptorSent> Middle of the afternoon - 15:34
23:36 <jirutka> wow, you’ve basically rewritten it all!
23:36 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Yeah, pretty much :)
23:36 <jirutka> looks like huge amazing work
23:37 <TemptorSent> jirukta: Thanks! I'm curious to see what fabled and ncopa think as well :)
23:38 <TemptorSent> jirutka: There's a fair bit of work left to be done just in terms of cleaning up and documenting everything consistently still.
23:38 <jirutka> I’d like to eventually move these scripts into a separate repository
23:38 <TemptorSent> jirutka: But the bones are mostly there and so is some of the flesh.
23:39 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Agreed, they don't belong in the aports tree so much, as they have significant functionality of their own. If mkinitfs is it's own repo, mkimage probably should be as well.
23:40 <TemptorSent> jirutka: In fact, I could easily see merging mkinitfs, update-kernel, and mkimage into one repository, since they all are tied together.
23:41 <jirutka> now please open a pull request from that branch against alpinelinux/aports:master
23:41 <jirutka> you should see a button for it on https://github.com/TemptorSent/aports
23:41 <TemptorSent> jirutka: With only a little more effort, I could probably split the load/build logic off from the image functions entirely.
23:42 <pavlix> TemptorSent: +1!
23:43 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Note -- currently it has 22 commits and isn't smashed. Will that be okay for a pull request, or should I finish the clenaup work before smashing and sending the PR?
23:44 <jirutka> TemptorSent: please don’t smash it, keep the commits
23:44 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Maybe you can create a pull request with a note that it's RFC for now + never squash commits if it actually made sense for you to split them.
23:44 <jirutka> ^ +1
23:44 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Okay, maybe a update of the dev doc is in order then, because the docs seem vehement on squashing from what I was seeing.
23:45 <pavlix> TemptorSent: It will make sense for others as well. I only squash commits when some of them are fixups or some of them simply don't work with each other.
23:45 <pavlix> TemptorSent: Makes sense.
23:45 <jirutka> TemptorSent: I’ll talk about it with fabled and ncopa, but I’d prefer to extract all commits from aports repo scripts directory into a separate repo and then merge your work into it, unsquashed
23:45 <jirutka> TemptorSent: to keep all history
23:46 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Sounds good, thanks!
23:49 <jirutka> TemptorSent: my bad memory… I said before that you can’t see context of comments in mails from GH, that’s not true, it includes even context!
23:49 <jirutka> TemptorSent: so you can reply to code review comments even from email exclusively
23:56 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Very cool! Okay, pull request sent, let me know if you need anything revised right off.
23:58 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I'm guessing that .travis doesn't have any idea about building images?
23:58 <jirutka> TemptorSent: no, there are no tests for building images
23:59 <TemptorSent> jirutka: That's one of the things I'd like to add going forward -- at least minimal functional testing and possilby regression testing.
23:59 <jirutka> TemptorSent: +100!