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00:17 <clandmeter> ncopa, any reason why we are using chronyd as default ntpd intead of the supplied bb ntpd?
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02:20 <TemptorSent> Query - is there any good reason to not default to using the host apk keys and repositories unless otherwise specified?
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02:46 <TemptorSent> Building zfs modules cpio.gz is down to the following: 'kerneltool --repositories-file /etc/apk/repositories --keys-dir /etc/apk/keys stage latest zfs spl ; kerneltool --repositories-file /etc/apk/repositories --keys-dir /etc/apk/keys mkmodcpiogz modsubset=zfs zfs'
02:47 <TemptorSent> Assuming we're safe to default the repo file and keys dir, it becomes: 'kerneltool stage latest zfs spl ; kerneltool mkmodcpiogz modsubset=zfs zfs'
02:53 <TemptorSent> A custom modloop is 'kerneltool stage latest zfs spl xtables-addons ... && kerneltool mkmodloop zfs kernel/drivers/scsi/ */*3c* ...'
02:57 <TemptorSent> Existing initfs globs are supported, but it would probably be wise to add a source tag directly to the glob, allowing simple usage such as 'kmod:zfs:extra/' to indicate type, source package, and glob.
02:58 <TemptorSent> s/kmod/kpkg/
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05:51 <TemptorSent> Hello fabled - are you around?
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07:24 <xsteadfastx> clandmeter: i created a PR for snapcast. the pre script doesnt create a user home directory
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07:31 <clandmeter> xsteadfastx, against my latest changes?
07:32 <xsteadfastx> shouldnt it be created? i thought i forgot to add it
07:33 <xsteadfastx> sorry then
07:34 <clandmeter> it probably should
07:35 <xsteadfastx> i checked the pre script in a fresh aports fetch
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08:12 <xsteadfastx> so i wanted to recreate my mopidy docker image... and it tells me something about missing gobject... wasnt there soemthing about it?
08:16 <xsteadfastx> i get this "ImportError: Error relocating /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0: pthread_setname_np: symbol not found"
08:19 <xsteadfastx> i tried it last week and mopidy was working
08:26 <xsteadfastx> if i do a "apk add" and it tells me "2 errors"... "-v" doesnt give me better output? is there a debug mode?
08:30 <xsteadfastx> there must have been some changes if it worked last week
08:30 <xsteadfastx> again some strange gstreamer python bindings problems with gobject and stuff... argh
08:33 <xsteadfastx> all i do is "import gi" in the python shell
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09:01 <clandmeter> apk fix
09:03 <xsteadfastx> ok thanks
09:03 <xsteadfastx> i wonder whats happening with py-gst1
09:05 <clandmeter> i think i have it working locally
09:05 <clandmeter> or had
09:05 <^7heo> Guys
09:05 <clandmeter> but do check, could be my tests are incorrect
09:05 <^7heo> how come I can sign an APKINDEX while I didn't generate a key on the machine I'm using for that?
09:06 <xsteadfastx> i started a fresh alpine:edge container and installed py-gst1...cant import gi. at least for python2
09:07 <^7heo> Is apk using a "dummy key" for this kind of operation?
09:07 <xsteadfastx> thats what mopidy needs
09:07 <ncopa> i think im gonna push libressl 2.5
09:09 <skarnet> 2.5.3 ?
09:09 <ncopa> yes
09:10 <clandmeter> xsteadfastx. what does your apk info |grep py say?
09:12 <ncopa> libressl 2.5 means rebuild of 142 packages in main
09:13 <ncopa> 60 packages in community
09:13 <ncopa> 49 packages in testing
09:17 <xsteadfastx> clandmeter: py-gobject3
09:17 <xsteadfastx> py-gst1
09:17 <xsteadfastx> python2
09:17 <xsteadfastx> py2-cairo
09:17 <xsteadfastx> py2-gobject3
09:17 <xsteadfastx> py2-gst1
09:18 <xsteadfastx> but
09:18 <xsteadfastx> apk fix tries to install glib and fails with the same error
09:18 <clandmeter> what is the error?
09:18 <xsteadfastx> Error relocating /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0: pthread_setname_np: symbol not found
09:18 <clandmeter> apk fails with that error?
09:19 <clandmeter> are you mixing repositories?
09:19 <xsteadfastx> apk fix does
09:19 <xsteadfastx> i have testing enabled
09:19 <xsteadfastx> else i couldnt install py-gst1
09:19 <clandmeter> make it all testing
09:19 <clandmeter> dont mix repos
09:19 <clandmeter> err all edge
09:21 <clandmeter> i guess its some apk post install/upgrade script that errors
09:21 <xsteadfastx> even its all edge?
09:22 <xsteadfastx> i mean its all edge...
09:22 <xsteadfastx> and still get the error
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09:37 <clandmeter> xsteadfastx, did you try: apk -U upgrade --available
09:40 <xsteadfastx> wuat? why did that worked?
09:40 <xsteadfastx> ;-)
09:40 <clandmeter> rtfm
09:40 <clandmeter> :p
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09:42 <xsteadfastx> mh ok... upgrade installed packages
09:42 <xsteadfastx> maybe my alpine edge image is too old
09:50 <clandmeter> xsteadfastx, was that image always edge?
09:50 <xsteadfastx> yes it was. but pretty old pull. i did a fresh docker pull alpine:edge and it worked... without the apk upgrade
09:51 <xsteadfastx> but i will add the apk -U upgrade --available to my dockerfile
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11:46 <xsteadfastx> if i install ca-certificates (the package) and do a update-ca-certificates it tells me no certificate is installed. is this command only for self installed cas?
11:46 <xsteadfastx> i need this to get the mopidy youtube plugin working
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11:59 <clandmeter> ca-certificates should work as is
11:59 <xsteadfastx> ah ok i found it it
11:59 <xsteadfastx> py-requests needs to set a enviornment variable where to find the certs
12:00 <xsteadfastx> REQUESTS_CA_BUNDLE
12:00 <clandmeter> yes thats possible
12:00 <xsteadfastx> to /etc/ssl/certs
12:00 <clandmeter> it currently doesnt do that?
12:00 <clandmeter> i mean it doesnt work without?
12:02 <clandmeter> shoudlnt it point to the bundle itself?
12:02 <clandmeter> /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt
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12:59 <xsteadfastx> i dont know... /etc/ssl/certs works
12:59 <xsteadfastx> i will check
13:21 <rdutra> ncopa: hi
13:23 <rdutra> ncopa: to compile go package in ppc64le, we need to use a new version of go-bootstrap package (as version 1.4 does not have support for ppc64le). I created a new version of go-bootstrap (cross-compiling it) and this version is able to compile the go package in ppc64le. It is hosted at: ftp://ftp.unicamp.br/pub/ppc64el/alpine/go-bootstrap/
13:24 <rdutra> ncopa: any idea how we can use this go-bootstrap in alpine build to compile go package for ppc64le?
13:30 <ncopa> rdutra i think we will have to add it manually to the builder
13:33 <clandmeter> isnt go already part of our boostrap tools?
13:34 <ncopa> rdutra: i manually installed the go-bootstrap on build-edge-ppc64le
13:34 <clandmeter> thought fabled worked on that
13:35 <fabled> yes, go should be bootstrap compileable via bootstrap.sh
13:35 <rdutra> clandmeter: the last go-bootstrap package is the version 1.4 (that is the version that do not have go code - just C), and this version has no support for ppc64le
13:35 <fabled> go-boostrap is the last go version that can be compiled with C-compiler
13:36 <fabled> it can target only limited number architectures
13:36 <rdutra> ncopa: you mean you installed it now or it was already installed?
13:36 <ncopa> i manually installed it
13:36 <fabled> newer go depends on go. and to bootstrap arch that is supported by newer go only, we need to crosscompile it using bootstrap.sh
13:37 <ncopa> fabled: rdutra already crosscompiled a go package
13:37 <rdutra> ncopa: ok, so can I send a patch to enable go in ppc64le? the go-bootstrap package will still be disabled as no support for 1.4 version
13:37 <ncopa> yes
13:38 <rdutra> ncopa: cool, let me do it here
13:39 <clandmeter> ncopa, what was the reason again for install files not to be included in checksums?
13:47 <rdutra> ncopa: https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/pull/1269
13:49 <ncopa> clandmeter because git has the checksum
13:49 <ncopa> but yeah, we could include them for consistency
13:50 <clandmeter> right, same case as initd/confd files
14:04 <leitao> ncopa, how do we force luajit to be recompiled?
14:04 <leitao> it seems that the current version is the one that segfaults.
14:12 <clandmeter> bump pkgrel
14:34 <ncopa> yes, bump pkgrel
14:41 <leitao> ok
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15:45 <rdutra> ncopa: leitao: https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/pull/1270
15:49 <clandmeter> rdutra, why bump luajit?
15:50 <rdutra> clandmeter: there was a fix for ppc64le (segfault problem) and needed to recompile the package
15:50 <clandmeter> and the fix didnt go into luajit?
15:51 <clandmeter> anyway, i need to run home. nice evening.
15:51 <rdutra> clandmeter: yes the fix was in luajit, but I did not bump the pkgrel to force it recompile
15:52 <clandmeter> ah i see now.
15:52 <clandmeter> well, normally you dont need to bump it if it didnt build. builder should try it again (when next in line)
15:53 <rdutra> clandmeter: the package was building in ppc64le but the generated binary was getting a segfault
15:54 <rdutra> clandmeter: guess that's why I needed to bump it
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15:56 <leitao> clandmeter, we fixed luajit but didn't upgrade the pkgrel. So, we were not seeing the fixed package being used.
15:59 <TemptorSent> ncopa, fabled: What is the feasiblity of making some changes to the kernel packaging before 3.6?
16:02 <TemptorSent> Specifically, building the kernel and all associated external modules to be packaged for each krel, then building a master manifest with checksums, and a deptree of checksums.
16:13 <ncopa> TemptorSent i will not have time for that before 3.6 release
16:15 <TemptorSent> ncopa: I already have the code to do the generation done, it just takes a long time to properly traverse the dep tree and get all the required files (the existing depmod misses several for some reason)
16:16 <ncopa> will this depend on the mkimage work you did?
16:16 <TemptorSent> ncopa: If it can't make 3.6, it's not a big deal.
16:16 <ncopa> i'd rather get your mkimage work in
16:16 <TemptorSent> It uses some files in common, but I've just about finished splitting the functions off.
16:16 <ncopa> lets focus on getting the mkimage in instead
16:16 <TemptorSent> It's necessary to have mkimage work properly.
16:17 <ncopa> you mean mkimage depends on the kernel refactoring?
16:17 <TemptorSent> It's done and working as far as creating the modloop and initfs modules.
16:18 <TemptorSent> mkimage needs the fixes I'm introducing, but the packaging is a user convenience issue.
16:19 <TemptorSent> Right now, you can make a modloop or initfs modules cpio with two commands :)
16:19 <ncopa> im not following. can we merge/add mkimage, mkinitfs, update-kernel without you refacotr linux kernel APKBUILDs?
16:20 <TemptorSent> Yes.
16:20 <ncopa> lets do that then
16:20 <ncopa> how do i do it?
16:20 <ncopa> did you export it to a separate git repo?
16:20 <TemptorSent> jirutka offered to do the splitting, and I think we're just about there.
16:20 <ncopa> ok
16:20 <ncopa> lets do that first then
16:21 <TemptorSent> git log on the directory I believe is the accepted approach?
16:21 <TemptorSent> okay
16:21 <TemptorSent> Please take a look and let me know what we want to do for command line options and such -- I've just carried through more or less what existed, which may not be ideal in some cases.
16:22 <ncopa> if the tools have the same names as the old ones
16:22 <ncopa> then they needs to be backwards compatible
16:23 <ncopa> if they have new names, then they dont need to be backwards compatible
16:25 <TemptorSent> Yeah, the backwards compatible part is working, but overly verbose in places (--repositories-file for instance)
16:27 <TemptorSent> The interesting new stuff is mostly 'kerneltool', which stages, subsets, and squashes/cpios/tars modules and handles the rest of the kernel artifacts.
16:28 <TemptorSent> I have NOT tested custom builds as of yet, but the supporting framework is there and should work with little problem once any obvious bugs get knocked out.
16:29 <TemptorSent> What probably does not work currently is the reverse-lookup for currently configured arch for the kernel. To fix that, we probably need to parse more of .config to figure out the bits and endiness.
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16:31 <TemptorSent> I'm just about ready to finish off the last of the transition for mkinitfs to use the new staging code.
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16:32 <TemptorSent> But realisitically, we don't need the initfs created by mkinitfs to be rebuilt every time the kernel is updated, we just need to update the modules.
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16:42 <TemptorSent> ncopa: The other issue I'd like to work out is nailing down a generally-useful manifest format.
16:43 <TemptorSent> Which probably needs to include filetype/size/owner/perms in addition to the checksum, source package, and path.
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16:44 <TemptorSent> the contents of /lib/apk/db/installed doesn't seem to be usable in the general case unfortunately.
16:57 <TemptorSent> Question: Where does the apk 'dot' output come from?
16:57 <_ikke_> TemptorSent: https://git.alpinelinux.org/cgit/apk-tools/tree/src/dot.c ?
16:59 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: I should have been more specific -- is it directly generated from the APKINDEX files and spit out by apk, or is there additional magick involved :)
17:00 <_ikke_> TemptorSent: From reading the code, it reads packages from the apk database
17:03 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: It's picking up the entire package list, not just installed, so I'm guessing it's parsing all APKINDEX.<sum>.gz files.
17:03 <_ikke_> right, was verifying what file it was actually reading
17:04 <_ikke_> TemptorSent: there is also /lib/apk/db/*
17:04 <_ikke_> But it makes sense it uses the repository index for this
17:04 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: Yeah, /lib/apk/db doesn't cut it unfortunately.
17:05 <_ikke_> openat(4, "APKINDEX.3f8e9ca0.tar.gz", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = 6
17:06 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: What I'm trying to do is get a list of packages required for a given FILE, which gets entertaining :)
17:06 <_ikke_> meaning, pkg x provides file f, pkg x requires pkg, y, etc?
17:08 <TemptorSent> Basically... Given a file, say /usr/sbin/zfs, I need to generate the list of packages required to meed the lib deps, but don't care about the 'normal' deps.
17:09 <TemptorSent> lddtree resolved to packages.
17:11 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: Any idea where the APKINDEX format is documented? It looks like it will be easier to parse that directly for so libs.
17:11 <_ikke_> TemptorSent: sorry, I don't
17:12 <TemptorSent> No problem, I'm going to take a stab in the dark that D: is deps and p: is provides
17:13 <_ikke_> TemptorSent: I think the source is the best documentation there is (but I can be mistaken)
17:14 <TemptorSent> Yeah, unfortunately the source is a bit hard to follow at times due to the way everything passes through the database.
17:14 <TemptorSent> Time to go poking around.
17:22 <leitao> jirutka: hi. Is lua-rapidjson building fine on your env?
17:22 <^7heo> kaniini, jirutka, clandmeter: https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/pull/1271
17:22 <^7heo> I tested it locally.
17:22 <^7heo> Sixel support is AWESOME.
17:24 <TemptorSent> Wow, it's hidden pretty well, I can find f: s: q: r: Z: R: M: a: and F:, but not p: or D:
17:27 <TemptorSent> Ahh, nothing to do with database, index, or anything else.. it's in apk_pkg_add_info of course?
17:34 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: Found the "documentation" starting at line 833 of package.c FWIW :)
17:36 <TemptorSent> fabled: A little help please? Is there any documentation for the various atom formats used in the APKINDEX fields available?
17:37 <TemptorSent> And what is the difference between origin and provides in that case?
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18:06 <kaniini> origin is what source package or apkbuild it came from
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18:30 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Okay, thanks. What atom formats are accepted where?
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18:32 <TemptorSent> kaniini: For instance, can origin contain versions?
18:32 <kaniini> no
18:33 <kaniini> it is just the name of the source package/apkbuild/whatever
18:33 <TemptorSent> Okay, it looks like that won't work either then :/
18:34 <TemptorSent> Kernel versioning is really quite fubar.
18:35 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Any thoughts as to how to ensure kernel packages don't get mismatches without actually scanning them all (which is what I'm doing currently)?
18:36 <^7heo> kaniini: if you have some time: https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/pull/1271
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18:37 <TemptorSent> As it stands, it's rather difficult to ensure a full set of matching kernel/modules/headers/dtbs is fetched atomically.
18:42 <TemptorSent> And something seems broken, because the dot output is showing zfs-vanilla-4.4.59-r0 -> spl-vanilla-4.4.59-r0 AND -> spl-vanilla-4.9.21-r0...
18:44 <TemptorSent> ...and each of the kernel packages have <pkg>-<flavor> as the origin, not <pkg>, which pretty much shoots my hopes of detecting which packages should be pulled rather than guessing.
18:46 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Would you mind doing 'apk dot | grep zfs' and telling me if you're seeing very strange results or if I just somehow fubared my apk database?
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19:01 <^7heo> kaniini: many thanks
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19:24 <awilfox> SCis there any progress on moving/mirroring/whatever this channel to OFTC or some other net?
19:26 <_ikke_> Any reason to?
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19:34 <kaniini> awilfox: ironically freenode has been better behaved since PIA has taken over
19:34 <kaniini> awilfox: they quit letting staff just k-line people for the fuck of it
19:36 <TemptorSent> It also seems more stable than I remember it being a few years ago -- my local net is usually the cause of drops now rather than the irc server. Net splits seem down as well.
19:37 <awilfox> kaniini: that doesn't make me feel any better about a private company controlling freenode. for the same reason I don't enjoy a private company controlling github.
19:38 <TemptorSent> The real fix is to decentralize again, but that requires irc server software that doesn't suck to actually happen.
19:38 <kaniini> awilfox: the eventual goal is to mirror the IRC channel to other platforms, but we probably wont leave freenode
19:40 <TemptorSent> How are things looking on EF these days?
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19:42 <kaniini> i mean, it's looking like a good place to get ddosed because some kid wants your nickname
19:42 <kaniini> IRC is trash :)
19:42 <TemptorSent> Yeah, I guess that hasn't changed :P
19:43 <_ikke_> Like slack is any better :P
19:44 <skarnet> IM is a dumpster fire all around
19:45 <_ikke_> at least irc is not commercialized yet
19:46 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: True, probably in part because it's so broken in so many ways :)
19:47 <_ikke_> Whatever it takes :D
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19:50 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: If people get together on a modern irc RFC, we might have both less broken IRC, and be able to distribute services away from any major holdings.
19:52 <_ikke_> What is preventing that from happening?
19:52 <TemptorSent> _ikke_: Critical mass of people getting together to do it :)
19:53 <yMGJRgi997ZH> https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications
19:53 <kaniini> LOLS
19:53 <yMGJRgi997ZH> :)
19:53 <kaniini> ircv3 is trasssssssssh
19:53 <_ikke_> kaniini: I suspected you would say that
19:53 <TemptorSent> Yeah, it's a mess.
19:53 <TemptorSent> Wrong approach.
19:54 <kaniini> they spent 3 years bikeshedding about how to migrate all users to TLS
19:54 <TemptorSent> kaniini: And made everything MORE complex, not less.
19:54 <kaniini> capability negotiation is good
19:54 <TemptorSent> Gravitars? Really?
19:55 <kaniini> the way they implement a lot of 'presence' type things is very odd
19:55 <kaniini> they did not really like my ideas on the matter
19:55 <kaniini> sooo lol
19:55 <TemptorSent> I want dead simple, the rest can sit on top of a solid foundation.
19:56 <kaniini> i guess they wouldn't be surprised to know that i think they have spent the past 3 years doing basically fuck all, like failing to solve things like push notifications to my phone
19:56 <kaniini> e.g. things that would be useful to solve
19:56 <kaniini> but hey i hear they have a bunch of specs on how to move everyone to TLS :)
19:57 <kaniini> TemptorSent: the worst part of ircv3 group is they have a public submission process that allows any idiot to submit specifications that are just completely whack
19:57 <kaniini> TemptorSent: and then they do not do anything to actually scrutinize these submissions
19:57 <TemptorSent> How about we just forget about the transport layer for a moment (since that should be pluggable!), and start looking at how to do federation on unreliable or partitioned networks RIGHT?
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19:58 <kaniini> well, they want to move IRC users onto mandatory TLS because apparently there is a thing called the NSA
19:58 <kaniini> but their spec to do it can be interdicted by the NSA anyway, so...
19:58 <TemptorSent> A lot of their bullet points look good, but those are client features, not server or protocol issues beyond the basic level.
19:59 <TemptorSent> TLS doesn't save you from anything.
19:59 <kaniini> i think the ircv3 people lost their way at some point in the ircv3.2 process
19:59 <TemptorSent> And I don't WANT authentication on IRC.
19:59 <kaniini> the SASL binding for IRC was good (oh wait that was my doing)
20:00 <TemptorSent> SASL actually makes senese.
20:00 <_ikke_> heh
20:00 <kaniini> the way message tags was done is hilariously bad
20:00 <kaniini> 512/512 split
20:00 <kaniini> because that's how parsers work, right?
20:00 <TemptorSent> Authentication when you want it, not when you don't.
20:01 <TemptorSent> Apparently.
20:01 <kaniini> the good news is basically no actual implementation follows the 512/512 split rule, because largely it's stupid
20:01 <TemptorSent> Why do message tags need anythign special at all other than maybe a non-printing character to demarc?
20:02 <kaniini> well
20:02 <kaniini> the 512/512 split was for legacy compatibility ostensibly
20:02 <kaniini> so you could hardcode a buffer size of 512 for the tags and a separate buffer for the message itself
20:02 <kaniini> nevermind that is a terrible way to code an irc parser
20:02 <TemptorSent> Yeah, give me CTCP over that mess.
20:03 <kaniini> well, CTCP is awful too
20:03 <kaniini> but
20:03 <kaniini> it is better than an ambiguous spec that is hard to follow
20:03 <kaniini> and in general, there's nothing wrong with message-tags
20:03 <TemptorSent> What was the point of all the autonegotiation if it can't negotiate a buffer (subpacket?) size?
20:03 <kaniini> except there's 3 different specs for client-to-client tags
20:04 <kaniini> right
20:04 <kaniini> that is what i am saying
20:04 <kaniini> if you speak tags
20:04 <kaniini> then clearly you can handle a buffer size of 1024
20:04 <kaniini> so if you can handle a buffer size of 1024
20:04 <jirutka> TemptorSent: so should I split it now?
20:04 <kaniini> then you should be able to support any kind of payload that is 1024
20:05 <kaniini> but then they were like "oh but people using old clients"
20:05 <jirutka> TemptorSent: also let me know if you want to somehow change the structure; probably move all from /scripts to /…?
20:05 <TemptorSent> jirutka: If you can take a look and review it somewhat first, I'd appreciate catching anythign ulgy before we get there..
20:05 <kaniini> and at that point i nearly had a stroke and my doctor advised me to stop talking to those people
20:05 <kaniini> ;)
20:06 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Basically, scripts/mkimage becomes a new root for repo mkalpine
20:06 <jirutka> leitao: yes, lua-rapidjson is building fine on my env and IIRC even on all builders except ppc64le (I don’t know about s390 or how is that called)
20:06 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Yeah, I'm kinda amazed by how little reality makes it through to people.
20:06 <jirutka> TemptorSent: don’t have time for the review now :(
20:07 <kaniini> TemptorSent: handling old clients is simple: don't
20:07 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Okay, let's hold a day or two then so I can hopefully get at least one more set of eyeballs on it.
20:07 <leitao> jirutka, hmm, this is a noarch package. I wasn't expecting any issue
20:07 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Let old clients connect using old protocol and strip off anythign new before sending it to them.
20:07 <kaniini> TemptorSent: if that is not a good answer for whatever reason, split the message
20:08 <kaniini> you can't connect an IRC client from the 1980s to a modern IRC server anyway
20:08 <jirutka> leitao: me neither, but it’s a problem with LuaJIT on ppc64le; your colleague has already debuged it and said that there’s some problem with PIE, so we’ve disabled PIE for main/luajit for ppc64le for now
20:08 <TemptorSent> kaniini: After the 3.6 drop, we should get a group together to talk about this in depth...
20:09 <jirutka> leitao: https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/pull/1266
20:09 <kaniini> TemptorSent: as for federation, that largely has to do with the fact that IRC is a monoculture. FOSS should dump IRC for matrix or something else that is modern
20:09 <jirutka> leitao: aha, but he forgot to bump pkgrel…
20:10 <leitao> jirutka, right.
20:10 <leitao> it seems luajit is enabled back
20:10 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Or at least adopt some of the concepts into an IRC type platform.
20:11 <jirutka> kaniini: well, still better ancient IRC that is at least open, standardized and federated protocol, then these hipster shits like Slack and similar; maybe Telegram is one of few at least quite interesting, IIRC they have thoroughly documented protocol
20:11 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Do you have a few minutes to eyeball the current state of my branch before jirutka splits the repo? I'm finishing up some refactoring, but I want to catch anything ugly that I missed before he does.
20:12 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Exactly. We need a more modern open, standardized, federated protocol that still allows for anon access and ad-hoc linking.
20:13 <kaniini> so... matrix in other words?
20:13 <kaniini> :p
20:14 <jirutka> TemptorSent: I’d insist on anon access (i.e. without any registration of any kind), I actually don’t consider this as a good thing, but definitely open and federated (!)
20:14 <jirutka> kaniini: yes, probably, I haven’t tried Matrix yet :(
20:14 <jirutka> TemptorSent: s/I’d/I’d not/
20:14 <kaniini> matrix isn't perfect by any means
20:15 <kaniini> but what's cool is, we can use matrix to federate the alpine chats to gitter
20:15 <kaniini> and other platforms like that
20:15 <jirutka> why gitter?!
20:15 <kaniini> because thats where people are now
20:15 <jirutka> wtf
20:15 <kaniini> alpine needs to be where people are, that is how you get new contributors
20:15 <jirutka> that’s why we’re on GitHub
20:15 <kaniini> exactly
20:16 <kaniini> where do you think github users go to talk about their stuff?
20:16 <TemptorSent> jirutka: The reason for anon access is at least two-fold -- 1) Privacy/security concerns. 2) Deniability.
20:16 <kaniini> hint: not freenode
20:16 BitL0G1c joined
20:17 <jirutka> kaniini: depends, hipster freaks go to Slack, then have dozens of accounts on Slack and complain about missing history etc.
20:17 <jirutka> kaniini: and doing workaround to allow auto-join new ppl
20:17 <jirutka> kaniini: serious projects use IRC
20:18 <TemptorSent> awilfox: *lol* Looks like a lot of us on the same pakge.
20:18 <kaniini> not from what i see. some projects offer both, but a few serious projects have been moving to gitter.
20:18 <TemptorSent> s /pakge/page/
20:18 <jirutka> I’ve logged like two times on Gitter, then after a year found out, totally by accident, that some ppl tried to contact me via Gitter…
20:19 <TemptorSent> The whole offline messaging issue is a real mess, and I haven't seen any implementations that don't suck.
20:19 <kaniini> either way, your opinion on those services aside, we use github for the same reason we would want to federate our chat resources
20:19 <jirutka> we can also just run our own IRC or any other server
20:20 <kaniini> yes
20:20 <TemptorSent> Ideally, every project would run host their own irc server and federate access.
20:20 <kaniini> the nice thing about matrix is, largely it is plumbing for federation so you can run your own IRC server and connect the channels there onto other platforms (freenode, gitter, telegram, etc.)
20:21 <kaniini> through matrix, it is possible to have events on #alpine-devel pushed to my phone (like when i am highlighted)
20:21 <jirutka> I don’t like IRC very much, it’s ancient and a many natural features must be workarounded (like using ZNC)… but I still don’t see any good alternative, maybe except Matrix (as I said, haven’t tried it yet)
20:21 <kaniini> without murdering battery
20:21 <TemptorSent> kaniini: I'm talking mostly federation across networks of the same service primarily, with federation to other services being a secondary concern.
20:21 <kaniini> TemptorSent: matrix can do that too
20:22 <kaniini> TemptorSent: matrix can bridge anything to anything
20:22 <jirutka> yes, that integration of many services is the most interesting feature of Matrix for me
20:22 <kaniini> basically my concept is
20:22 <TemptorSent> Yeah, I'm looking at matrix -- it looks like it's great for plumbing, but I'm not seeing it as a community server quite as much.
20:22 <kaniini> if you want to interact with alpine via freenode, you continue to do so
20:23 <kaniini> if you want to interact with alpine via oftc, then through matrix that could be possible
20:23 <kaniini> if you want to interact with alpine via gitter or telegram, that can be possible
20:23 <jirutka> now I use Slack via IRC, b/c some ppl in work wanted to use Slack… don’t bother me too much, b/c I just added it to ZNC and use it as any other IRC network; but I’d like to also integrated FB Messenger (well, b/c there are almost no girls on IRC…) and Twitter personal messages… that’s what is Matrix made fo
20:24 <kaniini> TemptorSent: the client story for matrix's native protocol is kind of missing right now (although they have riot which is kind of a mashup between the xchat and slack UIs, which looks pretty ok)
20:24 <jirutka> actually, it bothers me a little, b/c I must still explain them that I don’t see their fucking emoticons and other crap
20:25 <TemptorSent> kaniini: I'll have to dig into matrix a bit deeper, but it seems awfully heavy for the individual server.
20:25 <jirutka> and also written in Python…
20:25 <jirutka> but there’s already a project for Matrix server in Rust! :)
20:26 <kaniini> TemptorSent: there are newer implementations under development, synapse was basically meant to be a proof of concept
20:27 <TemptorSent> kaniini: I'm not really a fan of the whole stateless model nor json for content interchange. A single word message ends up a couple k it appears.
20:28 <skarnet> one platform to bridge them all and in the darkness absorb them
20:28 <kaniini> TemptorSent: stateless is necessary if you do not want to murder battery
20:28 <awilfox> TemptorSent: it gets better, it also uses WebRTC.
20:28 <jirutka> TemptorSent: at least it’s not XML or some binary protocol; JSON is totally okay for this purpose IMO
20:28 <kaniini> TemptorSent: keeping conncetions open means you're keeping the radio on
20:29 <kaniini> awilfox: yes, for an optional extension
20:29 <kaniini> awilfox: that you do not have to use or implement
20:29 <TemptorSent> kaniini: I'd rather see it done with a psudo-stateful connection manager then...
20:30 <TemptorSent> jirutka: It's not so much the json format itself, as the rather large amount of meta-data it has to transmit with each message.
20:31 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Something which allows the client to use a queue and checkpoints would be much more appropriate than the statless model it appears to use IMHO.
20:32 <kaniini> they do use checkpoints, actually.
20:32 <kaniini> you connect and you ask how many events have come in since <hash>
20:33 <TemptorSent> yeah, I see that -- but it requires far too much recordkeeping because it's split between many event sources.
20:34 <kaniini> no the 'homeserver' handles that for you
20:35 <kaniini> or do you mean how it has different URIs for eahc object
20:35 <TemptorSent> What really gets me is stuff such as '"ephemeral": { "events": [ "type": "m.typing", "content": { "user_ids": ["@alice:example.com"]}}]}
20:35 cyteen joined
20:36 <TemptorSent> Yeah, you can't simply request the stream for the last 5 minutes for all activity.
20:37 <jirutka> TemptorSent: what bothers you on this? I assume that you can disable notifications about someone typing if you want
20:37 <TemptorSent> How many bytes does it take to print '...' while someone is typing? How many hundreds of times a minute is that sent?
20:37 <jirutka> TemptorSent: I also don’t like it, it feel like someone is watching behind me back, but some ppl consider this useful
20:38 <jirutka> TemptorSent: it contains only minimum information needed
20:38 <TemptorSent> IMHO, that belongs in an IM tool, not a general chat server.
20:38 <kaniini> it was added because slack does it
20:39 <kaniini> and people asked for it
20:39 <kaniini> you do not have to use a client which sends those messages if you don't want
20:39 <jirutka> kaniini: not just Slack, even ancient ICQ had this feature
20:39 <TemptorSent> Yeah, not a good thing IMHO.
20:39 <kaniini> hint: the ircv3 guys are doing the same thing
20:39 <TemptorSent> If you want to do that sort of thing, do it OOB.
20:39 <kaniini> it is coming whether you want it to or not
20:39 <kaniini> even to IRC
20:40 <jirutka> how would that IM tools do it, if it was not in protocol? send smoke signals?
20:40 <jirutka> or just keep it unstandardized, so every client would use different message for this?
20:40 <TemptorSent> UDP would probably be my choice..
20:40 <jirutka> that’s non-sense
20:41 <jirutka> it would just increase complexity of the protocol for few bytes to save?
20:41 <jirutka> come on
20:41 <TemptorSent> If you want to send a packet per keystroke, do you really need to establish a tcp connection, post a request, receive a json reply, parse that, and eventually display it?
20:41 <awilfox> TemptorSent: it is not per keystroke. there are usually timers involved
20:41 <TemptorSent> If it's stateless, it should use a stateless protocol.
20:41 <jirutka> also don’t forgot that many (most?) ppl have actually broken Internet, because of NATs… so no P2P connection
20:42 <jirutka> TemptorSent: you’re talking about micro-optimizations for one particular even not important type of message
20:42 <TemptorSent> jirutka: That's fine, a simple repeater on a port on the server works just as well.
20:42 <awilfox> AIM uses "typing for at least 500msec or 3 keystrokes" -> "Foo is typing..." message, and then either "stops typing for at least 2 sec" or "send message" as "Foo is not typing" message
20:42 <jirutka> s/even/event/
20:42 <TemptorSent> Actually, most of the messaging could be done by UDP rather than TCP.
20:42 <awilfox> but this is all silly, if it wasn't using bloated dumb json it wouldn't be such a waste. you already have TCP connection established.
20:43 <jirutka> eh, no, it was right, even
20:43 <jirutka> exactly
20:43 <jirutka> you don’t have to (and really should not) establish plain new TCP connection for each message
20:43 <TemptorSent> My point is that using a stateless protocol over TCP is counterproductive.
20:44 <jirutka> no, it’s not
20:44 <TemptorSent> If you really want to save battery life, use UDP.
20:44 <awilfox> push notifications can't use UDP on most/all phones
20:44 <jirutka> TCP vs. UDP is not just about state(less)
20:44 <TemptorSent> No, it's also about reliability.
20:44 <awilfox> and TCP is for streaming
20:44 <awilfox> and this is a stream of stateless messages
20:44 <jirutka> it’s about guarantee that the message has been really received by the receiver
20:45 <awilfox> jirutka: also ordering.
20:45 <jirutka> yes
20:45 <TemptorSent> Establish a tcp connection to the stream, send udp messages, if they don't show up, resend.
20:45 <awilfox> TemptorSent: you kinda just re-invented TCP but using UDP on top of it. that seems silly
20:45 <jirutka> what actually Matrix use? HTTP?
20:45 <TemptorSent> Yeah.
20:45 <jirutka> awilfox: exactly
20:46 <jirutka> TemptorSent: do you know how expansive HTTP is for this kind of communication? and you’re talking about TCP vs. UDP?
20:47 <TemptorSent> TCP is fine for reading an incoming stream (but not so much for push updates), but for individual messages, especially of an ephemeral nature, udp makes more sense.
20:47 <jirutka> TemptorSent: I’d rather complain about this; for example FB Messenger uses MQTT and that was IMO actually very good idea, especially for phones with bad network connection
20:47 <kaniini> nevermind that UDP is not NAT friendly
20:47 <kaniini> and what are phones behind? NAT
20:48 <jirutka> yeah
20:48 <kaniini> yes, MQTT is an excellent transport because you can pick up where you left off
20:48 <TemptorSent> That's essentially what I was saying should be used, rather than the REST api matrix has.
20:49 <jirutka> and it also provides 3 levels of QoS, so you can choose e.g. 0 (no guarantees) for this “typing…” messages and 2 for important messages
20:49 <TemptorSent> I just think for ephemeral messaging TO the server, UDP would be appropriate.
20:49 <jirutka> TemptorSent: no, you was saying that it should use UDP for “typing…” messages, which is just plain silly…
20:50 <kaniini> all i know is that if you dont use a stateless protocol you have to keep the connection open which keeps the radio hot
20:50 <TemptorSent> jirutka: For sending ephmemeral data (such as typing) to the server.
20:50 <kaniini> which kills battery
20:50 <kaniini> that's just the reality of it
20:51 <kaniini> if apple did anything of value in the past decade, it was driving that point home to stupid developers
20:51 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Yeah, I work mostly in non TCP land when I'm dealing with embedded hardware, we're looking for a few hundred ms wakeup per minute mx.
20:51 <jirutka> TemptorSent: but this is not just about some laboratory environment, you really didn’t considered all consequences
20:52 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Are you saying outgoing udp from devices to services is likey broken as well?
20:52 <kaniini> most phones cant just send udp packets anyway
20:52 <kaniini> android and ios make you go through a lot of hoops to send udp packets
20:53 <TemptorSent> Ouch.
20:53 <kaniini> because it turns out people get upset when their phones start participating in ddos attacks
20:53 <kaniini> you have to consider data usage efficiency too
20:53 <kaniini> if your phone is sitting there sending a bunch of redundant udp packets
20:54 <kaniini> it means the user of the app is consuming more data than competitor apps
20:54 <kaniini> so they might quit using your app
20:54 <kaniini> because they do not want to waste their data
20:54 <TemptorSent> Not necessarily, you'd window the output.
20:54 <kaniini> unlimited data packages are really a US thing
20:54 <TemptorSent> UDP has less overhead per packet than TCP generally.
20:55 <jirutka> yes, I have ~2 GiB/month and that’s luxury there…
20:55 <TemptorSent> We don't have unlimited data here either.
20:55 <jirutka> and don’t even ask how much money I pay for this
20:55 <kaniini> i do
20:55 <kaniini> a lot?
20:55 <kaniini> :D
20:55 <TemptorSent> I don't even have a smart phone, so it's kinda moot :P
20:56 <kaniini> jirutka: well unlimited data packages in the US aren't
20:56 <kaniini> you get X GiB at 4G speeds and then they throttle you to like 128kbps for the rest of the billing period
20:56 <kaniini> or you can pay extra and then
20:56 <jirutka> around 450 Kč (18 USD) per month and that’s special tariff for small company (it’d be twice otherwise)
20:57 <jirutka> 128 kbps? that would be excellent! 16 or 32 kbps here (donjt remember exact number)…
20:57 <kaniini> you get X GiB at 4G speeds and then they only throttle you if the network is busy
20:57 <kaniini> but the extra is like 20-30 USD
20:57 <kaniini> if that is even an option
20:57 <TemptorSent> Yeah, I'm paying US 45/mo for my unlimited voice/no data plan, and I don't even get service most of the time.
20:58 <kaniini> jirutka: geeze
20:58 <jirutka> (btw when comparing prices, also remember that there are very different salaries per countries)
20:58 <kaniini> yes
20:58 <kaniini> 18 USD probably has a lot more buying power
20:59 <kaniini> in .cz?
20:59 <TemptorSent> Yeah, and total cost of living.
20:59 <kaniini> i think .cz
20:59 <kaniini> i could be wrong
20:59 <kaniini> here 18 USD doesn't get you much
20:59 <jirutka> hm, actually, if nothing changed, than some time ago they decided to totally disable your data when you’re out of limit… just remembered that there was some cause about this a year ago
21:00 <kaniini> well
21:00 <kaniini> the funny thing is
21:00 <jirutka> beer costs around 1.1 USD in CZ
21:00 <kaniini> america went from unlimited being the only option
21:00 <kaniini> to really capped plans
21:00 <kaniini> where if you ran out of data
21:00 <kaniini> they would charge you like
21:00 <kaniini> $30 per GiB
21:00 <kaniini> so people were getting like $400+ bills
21:01 <kaniini> i'm sure the carriers loved that
21:01 <jirutka> here it’s around 4 USD per 100 MiB…
21:01 <kaniini> then the FCC started to crack down on it
21:01 <kaniini> and now they have been moving back to unlimited plans
21:01 <TemptorSent> jirutka: A decent beer on tap here is $5-$9US!
21:02 <jirutka> and you can’t even get unlimited data plan if you’re not a big company… there are not data plans with more than around 5 GiB/month for public…
21:02 <kaniini> here you can literally go as high as 100GB if you want to
21:02 <kaniini> from some carriers
21:02 <kaniini> although i think they dropped those big plans and just launched 'unlimited' again
21:04 blueness joined
21:05 <TemptorSent> I don't think I could pull 100GB a month over my DSL line!
21:05 <jirutka> I’m happy that I have fiber optic :)
21:06 <kaniini> whats funny is
21:06 <kaniini> i could go to CZ
21:06 <kaniini> and blow through 50GB roaming
21:06 <kaniini> and it costs me nothing
21:06 <jirutka> heh
21:06 <kaniini> that's how saturated the cell market is in america
21:06 <kaniini> they now offer unlimited international 4G roaming
21:07 <kaniini> they can afford to do that
21:07 <kaniini> that shows you how profitable that industry is
21:07 <jirutka> if I went to USA and blow through 50 GiB roaming, then I’d have to probably sell my apartment to pay it…
21:08 <TemptorSent> jirutka: I'm about a half-mile of moderately solid rock worth of trenching to fibre.
21:08 <TemptorSent> What gets me is that with the density of radios we have now, telcos are still making a killing when the mesh capacity exceeds their backhaul.
21:09 <jirutka> actually fiber optic to home is far from the standard thing in CZ, this is a good luck, many of my friends have just shitty DSL even in Prague and pay more than I pay for fiber
21:10 <jirutka> it very depends on locality
21:10 <skarnet> jirutka: same in France really.
21:10 <skarnet> cities are fine, with state-of-the-art connectivity
21:11 <skarnet> the rural parts of the country, which there are still a lot of, still live in the XXth century or something.
21:12 <jirutka> I have 30/30 Mbps for $12/month, if I’d pay $16/month, I can have 100/100 Mbps; this is probably the best offer I heard about and even quality is excellent; it’s a small local ISP
21:12 <TemptorSent> Yeah. It's funny up where I live. I'm about 20 miles from the nearest city, and I've got ADSL2+ running at somewhere around a meg. My friend Lu lives in Iowa Hill, a smaller town than mine about 10 miles as the crow flies. They still don't have electricity, but she has 100mbps fiber to her home!
21:13 <skarnet> jirutka: that's pretty nice indeed. Good thing you still have small local ISPs, those are the only ones doing good work!
21:13 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Damn, I'm jealous!
21:13 <jirutka> we have the biggest penetration of WiFi providers here… b/c local telcos are so bad, that ppl started building local WiFi networks in cities
21:13 <jirutka> skarnet: well, still don’t have IPv6 :(
21:13 <jirutka> skarnet: but otherwise I can’t complain
21:14 <skarnet> TemptorSent: and how do they power their fiber? steam engines? :P
21:14 <TemptorSent> Likewise -- I don't get why the ISPs aren't deploying IPV6 as fast as possible.
21:14 <TemptorSent> skarnet: Solar, generators, and yes, a few steam engines!
21:14 <jirutka> (I mean biggest penetration worldwide, in CZ)
21:15 <TemptorSent> skarnet: As well as some micro hydro.
21:15 <skarnet> USA: the most advanced third world country
21:15 <jirutka> TemptorSent: b/c most users don’t have a clue what IPv6 is, so they do not demand it…
21:15 <jirutka> TemptorSent: and it cost money to deploy IPv6, so when only few customers demands IPv6, why bother…?
21:15 <TemptorSent> skarnet: I'm actually specing out a steam system for a micro-biomass plant.
21:16 <jirutka> if e.g. FB or Google go only via IPv6, then it would go very, very fast with deploying IPv6…
21:17 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Because all the damn IoT crap they are drooling to support would be much easier if they had IPV6? My local ISP also runs the security systems, so they have thousands of addressible camers, monitors, etc.
21:17 <jirutka> but no one “content provider” can afford to provide services only via IPv6
21:17 <jirutka> TemptorSent: they just deploy NATs over NATs over NATs…
21:17 <jirutka> TemptorSent: yes, it’s insane stupidity…
21:17 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Why isn't every bloody phone just and IPV6 address away?
21:18 <jirutka> TemptorSent: crappy Android, unfortunately most used mobile OS, didn’t even have propoer IPv6 support quite recently…
21:18 <TemptorSent> Fine, support IPV4 legacy clients, but why the hell not avoid the whole mess where you can and allocate a few thousand addresses per home/person.
21:18 <jirutka> TemptorSent: DHCPv6 was missing IIRC
21:19 <TemptorSent> Forward thinking :P
21:19 <jirutka> TemptorSent: why? ppl don’t understand it, they just install router with NAT and use shitty centralized services for all things… they don’t need P2P connections…
21:20 <TemptorSent> Yeah, how good is YOUR router? The crap the telcos provide can't handle more than a few active connections to track.
21:20 <TemptorSent> Not to mention the whole mess with QoS over NAT
21:21 <jirutka> quite shitty actually, should replace it soon
21:21 <TemptorSent> I need to find a good MODEM ONLY ADSL/VDSL unit.
21:21 <jirutka> not sure if you understand my position, I’m fully with you, I’m just trying to explain you the situation, why most ppl don’t demand IPv6
21:22 <jirutka> and why telcos are not very hurry to support IPv6
21:22 <TemptorSent> Oh, I know - I just want to beat them into it.
21:22 <TemptorSent> But what I don't understand is why telcos that are providing 'converged' services aren't doing so, if nothing else than to save their own money and time.
21:23 <jirutka> what converged services?
21:23 <TemptorSent> VoIP + Video Chat + streaming videos/music + gaming.
21:23 <jirutka> they don’t, at least here
21:23 <jirutka> just IPTV
21:24 <TemptorSent> Ahh, that's the big thing here, the so-called 'Triple-Play' Phone / TV / Internet
21:25 <TemptorSent> With home security/'smart home' features being a big up and coming segment for our ISPs/telcos.
21:25 <kaniini> TemptorSent: my router is excellent
21:25 <TemptorSent> kaniini: What are you running?
21:25 <jirutka> the biggest pain is that you can’t just switch to IPv6, you still need even IPv4 :/
21:25 <kaniini> TemptorSent: once i finish the alpine mips64 port, it will be running alpine
21:25 <kaniini> TemptorSent: right now it runs some commercial distribution of Vyatta
21:25 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Nice!
21:25 <jirutka> so it’s not about replacing one already almost dead protocol with better protocol, but about supporting additional protocol
21:25 <TemptorSent> kaniini: What's the hardware under it?
21:26 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Right, and allowing multiple devices without NAT.
21:26 <kaniini> TemptorSent: https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter-poe/
21:26 <TemptorSent> Ubiquity? Nice stuff.
21:26 <kaniini> TemptorSent: i have the highend version as a porting machine
21:26 <jirutka> TemptorSent: yes, that’s even worse, b/c then you don’t have two symmetrically configured network, but two very different networks
21:27 <jirutka> TemptorSent: and that causes many issues, some affects even customers and try explain BFU why something does not work b/c of IPv4 vs. IPv6…
21:27 <kaniini> TemptorSent: so basically my goal is to enable people to buy the edgerouter and then liberate it by installing alpine
21:28 <jirutka> does anyone here heard about Turris router?
21:28 <TemptorSent> jirutka: Ideally, they would provide IPV6 for everything, and an IPV4 tunnel for legacy.
21:28 <jirutka> https://www.turris.cz/en/
21:28 <TemptorSent> kaniini: I like it :)
21:28 <kaniini> TemptorSent: the hardware is unremarkable, it is basically just a cavium octeon2 board inside with an ethernet switch chip
21:28 <kaniini> TemptorSent: all supported by stock linux
21:29 <TemptorSent> kaniini: How are the magnetics?
21:29 <Shiz> late reminder that irc <-> matrix federation is absolute garbage
21:29 <Shiz> it's better than slack's, but only a little
21:29 <jirutka> Shiz: uh, why?
21:30 <Shiz> jirutka (IRC): do you like highlights like this?
21:30 <jirutka> Shiz: no, I don’t
21:30 <Shiz> jirutka (IRC): or a text link to some rando server containing text contents if your message exceeds 512 chars
21:30 <jirutka> Shiz: WTH?!
21:30 <TemptorSent> ??? WTF?
21:31 <jirutka> Shiz: even that stupid Slack can handle bigger message, just splits it into multiple messages
21:31 <jirutka> I mean Slack IRC gateway
21:31 <Shiz> not to mention all matrix users having that stupid [m] in their name
21:31 <Shiz> Shiz[m]
21:31 <Shiz> jirutka[m]
21:31 <kaniini> Shiz: and irccloud doesn't also have those behaviours? :)
21:31 <jirutka> can’t this be just disabled?
21:31 <Shiz> probably, but its on by default and everbody uses it
21:31 <* kaniini> does not have an [m] by my name
21:31 <Shiz> kaniini: im not sure how irccloud is related to any of this, it's shit too
21:31 <^7heo> ncopa: did you get my mail answer?
21:32 <skarnet> kaniini[m]: you think you don't
21:33 <kaniini> lols
21:33 <kaniini> i admit i did have to check to be sure
21:33 <skarnet> * Achievement Unlocked * You successfully trolled kaniini.
21:33 <TemptorSent> kaniini: Hmm, I can't find the isolation voltage specs in the ubnt datasheet -- Do you have any info? I've got a few sites with MAJOR lightning and RADAR! problems.
21:33 <jirutka> skarnet: \o/ XD
21:33 <algitbot> \o/
21:33 <TemptorSent> Well played skarnet!
21:33 laj joined
21:35 <kaniini> Shiz: i would argue that automatic pastebinning of very large text is a feature though
21:35 <kaniini> like something that would otherwise be 10+ lines in irc
21:36 <Shiz> i would argue that i dont want chat contents to be accessible over http on a random matrix server
21:36 <Shiz> if you need to pastebin, use a pastebin site...
21:36 gromero joined
21:37 <TemptorSent> kaniini - Do you think we can get alpine running on this :) : https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/powerbeam-ac-iso/
21:37 <kaniini> anyway, my point largely has to do more with
21:37 <kaniini> we should federate the chat resources as we did the git resources
21:39 <kaniini> i do not think a third-party platform (private internet access née freenode) should be the gatekeeper on who gets to participate on #alpine-* channels
21:40 <kaniini> and that as time goes on, we will continue to miss out on contributors who think IRC is really outdated (aka: millenials)
21:40 <kaniini> matrix was just one way to accomplish that type of federation
21:40 <kaniini> Shiz: ^
21:41 <jirutka> kaniini: https://xkcd.com/1782/
21:41 <Shiz> i dont disagree with federation, btw
21:41 <kaniini> exactly jirutka
21:41 <jirutka> kaniini: I meant that IRC will not die! XD but I agree with you
21:41 <Shiz> i think the clone to github was really well for us
21:42 <Shiz> and having some kind of federation across platforms is good
21:42 <kaniini> we should also be on bitbucket and on gitlab
21:42 <kaniini> be on all the things
21:42 <Shiz> i just get itches everytime someone mentions matrix
21:42 <jirutka> kaniini: and I think that we all don’t want some shit like Slack, so we’ll choose something sane
21:45 <kaniini> oh hell no
21:45 <kaniini> no slack
21:45 <kaniini> i use slack for work, it is way better for most people than our attempt at using irc was
21:45 <kaniini> but
21:45 <kaniini> slack is for small business setups
21:45 <kaniini> it's not FOSS scale
21:46 <jirutka> yeah
21:47 <kaniini> but i do think federating with gitter has value
21:47 <kaniini> because it's an untapped demographic
21:47 <jirutka> I totally hate how Slack basically just reinvented IRC with nicer client, closed proprietary protocol, and their market value is bigger than ((IIRC) even SpaceX that actually do something innovative and amazing
21:47 <TemptorSent> Okay, I guess I'm going to have to go find out what glitter is.
21:48 <kaniini> TemptorSent: gitter is gitlab's proprietary slack clone
21:48 <Shiz> if by 'reinvented irc' you mean 'has chat'
21:48 <Shiz> and 'has channels'
21:48 <Shiz> there's nothing much more in common, namely
21:48 <kaniini> and has # everywhere
21:48 <jirutka> I use Slack as first example of start-up culture, VC and what’s wrong with money redistribution
21:48 <Shiz> and slack is big because it's useful
21:48 <kaniini> yes, how the fuck is slack worth billions
21:48 <jirutka> Gitter is not GitLab’s… or did they bought them?
21:48 <kaniini> gitlab bought gitter
21:49 <jirutka> wow, didn’t know about that
21:49 <TemptorSent> Okay, just going to their webpage is enough for me to run screaming!
21:49 <kaniini> i mean, i don't like gitlab, inc either
21:49 <kaniini> but i think they are at least more trustworthy than private internet access
21:50 <kaniini> TemptorSent: it's not for a well-established Gen-Xer like yourself
21:51 <Shiz> well, i have the solution
21:51 <Shiz> we clearly need to move to rizon
21:51 <jirutka> move to what?
21:53 <TemptorSent> Shiz: You mean AMD's latest and greatest disappointment?
21:53 <Shiz> that's ryzen
21:54 <Shiz> and people seem to disagree on that one
21:55 <TemptorSent> Let me know when we can actually generate fast code for it, then I'll give it a fair shake.
21:55 <TemptorSent> Okay, so that aside, WTF is rizon then?
21:55 <TemptorSent> I'm apparently not buzz-word compliant.
21:55 <Shiz> or google-compliant, apparently
21:56 <TemptorSent> Same thing :P
21:57 <jirutka> Shiz: +1 XD
21:57 <TemptorSent> Oh, "Network features built-in entertainment and very simple access to over 20 servers across the network." How inspiring.
21:58 <TemptorSent> Ahh, it came up somewhat after I got out of things back then, that's why I'd never heard of it.
21:59 <ncopa> ^7heo: re nginx? yes. you and jirutka can fight about who will take it
22:00 <jirutka> ncopa: ^7heo: too late, I already did it, just going to push XD
22:00 <ncopa> i'm gonna push libressl 2.5 in a minute + 200+ rebuilds
22:00 <ncopa> jirutka: can you hold it 30 sec?
22:01 <TemptorSent> Sounds like fun -- we'll see how much carnage comes out of that :)
22:01 <jirutka> ncopa: yes, why?
22:01 <ncopa> so it gets built with libressl 2.5
22:01 <jirutka> ncopa: I haven’t bumped yet, just claimed maintainership and added _url variable for every external module to make you happy :)
22:02 <ncopa> libressl 2.5 pushed
22:02 <ncopa> thanks!
22:02 <jirutka> ncopa: now I’m going to integrate some of good changes from Valery’s mega-commit
22:03 <ncopa> super thanks for taking care of it
22:03 <ncopa> i owe you another beer
22:03 <jirutka> oh, so many commits! if clandmeter has server still in his office, he would not be able work tonight XD
22:04 <ncopa> he might not be able to work tm morning either :)
22:04 <jirutka> XD
22:04 <TemptorSent> ncopa: Do you have any objection to removing the modules from the building of the initfs.cpio.gz and appending them upon install?
22:05 <jirutka> ncopa: btw have you looked at https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/pull/1261 ? :)
22:05 <ncopa> the only objection i have right now is anythign that can prevent me from go to bed :)
22:05 <ncopa> TemptorSent im not sure what you mean
22:05 <ncopa> but i really need to go
22:05 <TemptorSent> ncopa: Basically creating two distinct cpio.gz, one with only userland, one with only kernel artifacts, then appending them after the fact.
22:06 <TemptorSent> ncopa: No problem, get some rest!
22:06 <TemptorSent> ncopa: <for your backlog> VVV
22:08 <TemptorSent> One cpio.gz is created out of the kernel staging and contains only the kernel-specific artifacts, such as the kernel, symbols, modules, dtbs, firmware, etc., and is named for instance modules-$krel.cpio.gz.
22:10 <TemptorSent> The other is generated by staging the required userspace files using fkrt, apk, globs, and checksums, and creating a cpio.gz such as initfs-$date.cpio.gz.
22:11 <TemptorSent> To install, simply cat the two together 'cat initfs-$date.cpio.gz modules-$krel.cpio.gz > initramfs-$krel'
22:12 <jirutka> I’m dead, going to bed; good night!
22:13 <TemptorSent> You could also just append both in the bootloader, which may be a way around any license issues with things such as zfs, as you can make a seperate cpio.gz, say modules-zfs-$krel.cpio.gz and append that in the bootloader.
22:13 <TemptorSent> Same goes for userspace. Taken to the logical conclusion, this means we could ship everything prebuilt as fragments and append those together rather than creating them on the client machines.
22:14 <TemptorSent> Goodnight jirutka!
22:16 <clandmeter> It's not him
22:16 <clandmeter> He doesn't go to bed at this time
22:21 <jirutka> clandmeter: I do, sometimes, after afternoon walking around shops to find good couch :)
22:21 <jirutka> clandmeter: and I’m not going to sleep right now, wanna watch one episode of Mr. Robot and then sleep :)
22:22 <clandmeter> See there he is
22:22 <clandmeter> I didn't like the last season
22:22 <clandmeter> Too weird
22:23 <jirutka> yeah, my colleague already warned me that 2nd season is not very good, I’m watching the first session now
22:24 <jirutka> ep 7 now
22:38 <^7heo> ncopa: meh ok. Maybe it's worth fixing the ML tho. It's not the first time that happened to me.
22:38 <^7heo> also mr robot is kinda shit
22:38 <^7heo> the first episode is great
22:39 <^7heo> maybe the first episodeS to be nice
22:39 <^7heo> but yeah, nah, waste of time
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23:12 <jirutka> ^7heo: I don’t see any email from you from yesterday on ML o.O
23:13 <^7heo> jirutka: yes exactly.
23:13 <^7heo> jirutka: my point.
23:14 <jirutka> ^7heo: I’ve just seen s01e07 and it’s still good; the scene where Eliot told Krista the truth was really terrifying… if someone would tell me something like this I’d shit my pants
23:14 <^7heo> meh
23:15 <jirutka> ^7heo: she probably didn’t have a clue what he really is, really serious psychopath
23:15 <^7heo> nothing to do with hacking tho
23:15 <^7heo> yeah I dunno
23:15 <^7heo> just not what I wanted to see I guess
23:15 <jirutka> yes, but quite interesting from me from sociological and psychological PoV
23:15 <jirutka> s/from/for/
23:16 <^7heo> yeah but I will check other series for that
23:17 <^7heo> hence mr robot == shit imho
23:17 <jirutka> it has very good ratings and many ppl recommended it to me
23:21 <^7heo> wait are we still talking about ubuntu?
23:22 <jirutka> uh… wha… okay… well played, really well played!
23:23 <jirutka> but still, I’d not say that this show is a shit, it’s just different than what we expected
23:23 <Shiz> noot noot
23:23 <^7heo> jirutka: thanks
23:23 <^7heo> :p
23:24 <^7heo> jirutka: maybe it's good if you're okay with unmet expectations
23:24 <^7heo> jirutka: I wouldn5t know
23:24 <^7heo> wouldn't* fuckin phone
23:24 <jirutka> I can adapt ;)
23:25 <^7heo> yeah
23:25 <jirutka> b/c the new theme is interesting for me as well
23:25 <^7heo> cameleon jirutka.
23:25 <jirutka> so I’m not dissapointed that it’s not mainly about hacking
23:26 <^7heo> but yeah, I was really hoping for something with real hacking
23:26 <Shiz> unrealistic expectations
23:26 <jirutka> ^ agree
23:26 <^7heo> and things I could relate to
23:26 <^7heo> I'm not a psycho who dreams his father out
23:26 <^7heo> I can't get that
23:27 <^7heo> it's just too... far fetched
23:27 <jirutka> but what I really don’t like about this show is this stereotype that hackers == crazy junkies
23:27 <^7heo> yeah, kinda my point
23:28 <jirutka> why every movie about hackers shows them as underground freaks on drugs?
23:28 <jirutka> ^7heo: no spoilers damn!
23:28 <^7heo> oooh sorry
23:29 <^7heo> yeah well how can you explain cleverness and genius to stupids?
23:29 <^7heo> drugs!
23:29 <^7heo> they can understand drugs.
23:29 <jirutka> I don’t know any hacker group tbh, but still don’t think that every hacker must be junky
23:29 BitL0G1c joined