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03:58 <terror> Is anyone working on DPDK & VPP on Alpine?
03:58 <terror> Given the origins of Alpine, it's be a cool platform to build a router/firewall thing
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09:06 <JayAlpine> Hi everyone
09:06 <JayAlpine> Does anyone had any success following this guideline to setup alpine in AWS: https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Install_Alpine_on_Amazon_EC2
09:07 <JayAlpine> I thought I had a success, but for some reason I can't login to the server
09:08 <JayAlpine> I even tried to setup a password and not just ssh key pairs, still no success
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10:34 <_ikke_> jackmcbarn: by default it does not allow root login via ssh
10:34 <_ikke_> j7k6: not sure if that's your issue, but sshd_config does not have AllowRootLogin set by default
10:41 <JayBau> I am not using root
10:41 <JayBau> I used alpine user
10:41 <JayBau> ssh -i pem alpine@host
10:42 <JayBau> I tried ssh and password, not of them worked
10:42 <JayBau> I'll probably try to create again and check AllowRootLogin
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10:42 <JayBau> thanks :)
10:42 <_ikke_> Would only matter if you used root though
10:43 <JayBau> no, I'm not using root, but not sure if there are other option in sshd_config that's preventing me from logging in
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11:19 <JayBau> no luck
11:21 <JayBau> currrently, I have my production running on docker, I want to try AWS autoscaling to fire up new ec2 instances, but I want to use alpine and it's not available in aws currently.
11:22 <JayBau> it will be good to create an alpine image and set the autoscaling to deploy instances based on that image. :)
11:23 <JayBau> I will stay here a little longer, I'm sure someone else is doing it.
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11:55 <_ikke_> Do you have console access to the vm?
11:55 <pardis> EC2 does not provide console access
11:57 <pardis> JayBau: It's annoying, but if you want an actual error message instead of guessing, you can attach your instance's root volume to a different instance, mount it and look in /var/log
11:59 <JayBau> @_ikke_ that's what I am trying to accomplish, trying to login via ssh, not sure if that what's you meant by `console`
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12:00 <JayBau> @pardis I will definitely try your suggestion. thanks
12:00 <_ikke_> JayBau: No, the console is usually a way to directly login to the server, without any network connection. It would allow you to inspect things
12:00 <_ikke_> but apparently that's not possible
12:01 <JayBau> @_ikke_ ah no, I am trying to have it on an AWS EC2 instance
12:01 <_ikke_> Understood
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12:36 <mgoodwin> How can I install open-vm-tools and rc-update add it during the installation process? (pre first boot after doing setup-alpine) Having issues with the packer plugin I'm using needing that on first boot
12:41 <kahiru> mgoodwin: guess you'll have to chroot into the newly installed system
12:42 <mgoodwin> Is there a common path for that during the sys install
12:42 <mgoodwin> trying to go through discovery of that now to get the right boot_command
12:43 <mepholic> you don't need to manually chroot into the target system
12:43 <mgoodwin> apk --root?
12:43 <mepholic> you can tell apk to install a package to a specific basedir
12:43 <mepholic> yep
12:44 <kahiru> ah, right
12:44 <mgoodwin> what about rc-update though
12:44 <kahiru> manually place the symlinks?
12:44 <mepholic> that'd be the best bet
12:45 <mepholic> i'm pretty sure that's all rc-update does anyhow
12:45 <mgoodwin> yeah, I could
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13:08 <omniuwo> is this just for me?
13:08 <omniuwo> ERROR: freetype-2.8.1-r3: package mentioned in index not found (try 'apk update')
13:09 <omniuwo> (I did 'apk -U upgrade')
13:10 <TBB> did you apk update?
13:10 <omniuwo> ah, it's the mirror that's not fully updated yet, I guess
13:10 <TBB> yeh, that's possible
13:10 <omniuwo> TBB: that is what '-U' is for
13:11 <TBB> I must've seriously misunderstood the mirror syncing process because it just can't go offer an updated index to users if the conten't isn't there
13:12 <omniuwo> agreed, it doesn't feel right
13:12 <nmeum> which mirror are you using?
13:12 <omniuwo> btw, I'm not using any of the dl-X.alpinelinux.org
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13:13 <omniuwo> nmeum: ftp.acc.umu.se, since I wanted to fetch over https
13:16 <tmh1999> doesn't matter http or https, packages are signed and verified with keys in /etc/apk/keys
13:16 <tmh1999> apk -U upgrade means update then upgrade
13:17 <tmh1999> <JayBau>: There's a guide on wiki on how to install on aws
13:17 <tmh1999> I made it to google cloud too, still finding time to write up
13:18 <JayBau> _ikke_ https://pastebin.com/dZYedLZs not really sure how to check /var/logs after mounting the disk, this is what I see after mounting the disk
13:18 <JayBau> I just realized that I posted this in the wrong channel
13:18 <_ikke_> JayBau: np
13:18 <JayBau> tmh1999 I did follow that, although I cannot login via ssh, tried password and key pairs.
13:20 <tmh1999> now I don't have aws and I can't verify, but google cloud allows you to update a qemu raw disk and create a boot image/disk from it, which is very nice.
13:20 <tmh1999> s/update/create/g
13:20 <tmh1999> are you sure ssh port is open and you can reach the vm ?
13:21 <JayBau> yes ssh port is open, but it's not accepting the key pair that I have installed, and the password
13:22 <JayBau> I set "PermitRootLogin" to yes btw
13:22 <tmh1999> your aws account has firewall rules ?
13:22 <JayBau> still trying what else can be done to make it work
13:23 <_ikke_> The first step would be to find out why they're rejected in the first place
13:23 <tmh1999> if ssh port is open and you can reach it, then it's ssh problem. not alpine nor aws. my guess is you need to create firewall rule on your aws console/dashboard.
13:26 <JayBau> ssh alpine@34.216.18.12
13:26 <JayBau> ssh root@34.216.18.12
13:26 <JayBau> tried both, I do get the login prompt
13:27 <_ikke_> ok, so not a firewall issue
13:28 <JayBau> PUB: ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAADAQABAAABAQDKytMNwtdNVVOMBR5rQhi84l5nwrU9S+W73laHv16ByGZPMDRCTa4OwuW4lmqiz0/+rqsYrTxZKfOzKP3hJelQCAlRbUHRaP2Lk8rOJ6n0kFeww7CRmrSew2nRZv8w0LWvNCy7cSwyIoMhxiI2DCKMlLnq3wKhvGtt3iQkGMmdCOWEtuPAyhZDKPx0htG3ihaBNcImr1bH2yC36CTKe59pi4ergLDHMhNvDZioGHQLbSvE3lkzzq25LvOF5JN0GRRvLTIZp9LRi7Jdpxp4QErYorNCZaQv72aa6hrNZh3lwRgOZC0njYposoJ0JmZIihRun/apMbdv7W9FzbCpiBu5 root@localhost
13:28 <JayBau> PEM: -----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
13:28 <JayBau> MIIEpQIBAAKCAQEAysrTDcLXTVVTjAUea0IYvOJeZ8K1PUvlu95Wh79egchmTzA0
13:28 <JayBau> Qk2uDsLluJZqos9P/q6rGK08WSnzsyj94SXpUAgJUW1B0Wj9i5PKziep9JBXsMOw
13:28 <JayBau> kZq0nsNp0Wb/MNC1rzQsu3EsMiKDIcYiNgwijJS56t8Cobxrbd4kJBjJnQjlhLbj
13:28 <JayBau> wMoWQyj8dIbRt4oWgTXCJq9Wx9sgt+gkynufaYuHq4CwxzITbw2YqBh0C20rxN5Z
13:28 <JayBau> M86tuS7zheSTdBkUby0yGafS0YuyXacaeEBK2KKzQmWkL+9mmuoazWYd5cEYDmQt
13:28 <JayBau> J42KaLKCdCZmSIoUbp/2qTG3b+1vRc2wqYgbuQIDAQABAoIBAQCwzAMUjDmIgktE
13:28 <JayBau> V3IdsJJAmloTu/ymY/T1xPFLh9us6jnH8A6ff3mwBNqiAwEU0Ai90Sn5aY6jbZ+5
13:28 <JayBau> IpO0Jokx7M+y3b30A8SIW2EEOjBBt1W8Fd9qEaZGg7dNiK4SsOK0zJfzEselLdGF
13:28 <azarus> ...?
13:28 <JayBau> MGfDFvFH/qHX0nVI7Cv8rR51Gecrr3hUN1oMmPhx/bhagnovdCspW6Hze6CIOcNm
13:28 <JayBau> ny3FeQpZQgILkqINitQSqSwFAb61xLYtJAzm3yWyGvNlP4L0oIE5PjL1WLz9QePI
13:28 <JayBau> qfFqloqdWCiEjB7BQPq02W7L7XNpv/o+VurwAIyhVoCogqnxicGhnRoIMe+Pgc/w
13:28 <omniuwo> uh..
13:28 <JayBau> 7s5IimgBAoGBAOzXEt47KIjtW8lqGAw0rPTbdw6C39/W+Dn3X8qkcO0yVSa5zhxJ
13:28 <JayBau> fK/WnrfBijTsF9n65ZYw6ZDAvaFyBj8U1AsdXVCBNTx2TAuj1oIIEPEXM9KEuUP0
13:28 <JayBau> 0I7mN48ZKPD8mTipdgFAe5ir5P2OzMNS2+oQ/UZPMtVO0cjie9Y2SsdxAoGBANsy
13:28 <JayBau> n98URyFSsPq6c426kr4nnT6BMhcTdz6j/S9UZM89QCY99ArZICBKhRufKfAEJeE6
13:28 <JayBau> w4YZR46XX5bBIHYecpqpD0Vewe+nULVf7XDYhyVVdSkEjXacC27e+aT8cjpbIBzE
13:28 <JayBau> ahRblZRj93KxAKj2c8v4/YmwCj8/EVRKzs9gj8TJAoGBAIMG5aBeuCkwr6P5dv5h
13:28 <JayBau> sgHw3KgBjZuHkWJ4Ud2JJhSD0QoQp0+M9FdPdBWTFEP9DaEBpjx2KPF1QDPuIjiJ
13:28 <JayBau> 7FmN0E82fF5Lz/xsksLzdXP78yaXWOuYqD02bixTrgvMo3PuhKNiqj4ncxM4Cl5R
13:28 <JayBau> G+sdpRFdxXCvH250pjA3bx1xAoGBAMLjjutL3zZMjFhQwH7J3MC+/frd6chEoWgL
13:28 <JayBau> bAfR1FPCFLArsziV9g9f0ltNt37UYU2Q7tjizxGDmxSxn4gF6EWEfLRj3LCUpZit
13:28 <JayBau> srH7gqV6BtIyXwiPE0c/btz3KyShcrrBE8QH7cVi4FaT849GmIxJVDtATswO6fx1
13:28 <azarus> stahp
13:28 <JayBau> Cs2tAAapAoGAUfEWfZYCJHuNXgmzS0Tz+Sw8p72DNxljox8+Z4jRaLQrfZTznmXg
13:28 <JayBau> x/V3TNbUjiZQRF0BHCnC5BvKR2ezW/24De86jyVuZbww9n4Ay2Mm+ngXCGWXp9o6
13:28 <clandmeter> /o\
13:29 <JayBau> 47gQ8nLGz5+DaL8OOMfYMmyzOkUUBpZpi7UV9SFAbI4j9oeeK1Hrh14=
13:29 <JayBau> -----END RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
13:29 <JayBau> darn, I spammed the channel, sorry
13:29 <JayBau> just trying to maximize the things that I can share
13:29 <JayBau> lol
13:29 <omniuwo> with a private key even
13:29 <clandmeter> you are sharing your private key?
13:29 <_ikke_> JayBau: I would revoke that private key as fast as possible :)
13:29 <clandmeter> i would rm -rf this key asap
13:29 <_ikke_> right
13:29 <JayBau> well, it's just a test private key
13:30 <JayBau> and just using a test aws account to figure this out :P
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13:31 <JayBau> I might look into google cloud if that's where it is working. but really, I've been using aws since it's day 1.
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13:43 <zNVxxliww5gP> anyway that is also a nice opportunity to switch to ed25519 keys, rsa keys are so 90ies...
13:43 <zNVxxliww5gP> also much less noisy if you happen to paste them regularly ;)
13:43 <azarus> ed25519 keys are quite pasting-friendly
13:43 <azarus> which is nice
13:43 <_ikke_> nod
13:44 <azarus> also, faster to check
13:45 <clandmeter> if you are depended on old junk, dont trow away your rsa keys.
13:46 <azarus> old junk being old firewalls or so that don't accept ed25519?
13:47 <clandmeter> junk you cant upgrade.
13:47 <JayBau> never thought of changing it actually, like when I need to create key pairs, my hand will automatically type ssh-keygen -t rsa
13:47 <JayBau> lol
13:47 <JayBau> will try my best to adapt :)
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13:52 <tmh1999> <JayBau>: if you keep poking me I will write the wiki for gcloud soon... It's pretty straightforward. Gcloud offer $300 or 365 days free ;)
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13:53 <tmh1999> so when you're broke af, just clone another gmail ...
13:54 <omniuwo> JayBau: will your hand also automagically type '-b 4096'?
13:56 <JayBau> haven't looked at google, but 300USD is a lot for just trying the exact thing that I want to happen. creating another gmail for 300 bucks? why not if it's for experimental purposes! :)
13:57 <kahiru> omniuwo: mine sure does
13:58 <JayBau> omniuwo: I stopped typing that part :P
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14:00 <tmh1999> yeah, so you'd have a budget of $25/month. Lowest vm config is 1vCPU 0.6GB 10GB disk = $5/month. Good things happen when giants fight.
14:02 <JayBau> I got linode instance too, 20USD free upon registration, 5$/month on the smallest instance. it's really good for presentation. after that 20$, simply register again. :-)
14:03 <JayBau> thank God we are in this era, 7 or 8years ago, I am paying 200$+/month for VPS
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14:05 <tmh1999> "hit" the big guys, they can afford to lose. linode seems to be trying to make a living :P
14:05 <JayBau> lol
14:08 <JayBau> don't know much about them, their ads is everywhere, worth a try though, not like cloudatcost. I spent 20USD for 4GB vCPU, 20GB disk and unlimited transfer, they claim it to be one time purchase like you will own it of the rest of your life. althought you will have to pay for maintenance
14:08 <JayBau> and then your instance can't be reached 90% of the time lol
14:14 <Nikolay[m]> Hi. I can't mount cdrom. Unknown filesystem type 'udf'
14:17 <zNVxxliww5gP> modprobe udf.ko?
14:18 <JayBau> Nikolay[m]: are you mounting a cd or dvd?
14:18 <Nikolay[m]> cd
14:19 <Nikolay[m]> zNVxxliww5gP: module not found
14:19 <JayBau> try modprobe udf
14:19 <JayBau> and then mount it again
14:20 <Nikolay[m]> Oh I got it. I updated kernel
14:20 <Nikolay[m]> And didn't reboot
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14:37 <Nikolay[m]> how can setup gvfs with thunar
14:38 <Nikolay[m]> how can I*
14:38 <TBB> install gvfs and thunar-volman at least
14:38 <TBB> just a sec, I have something related to that on my disk
14:39 <Nikolay[m]> I installed them
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14:40 <TBB> ok. I think you need polkit as well.
14:41 <TBB> you probably want it for getting the chance to mount removable storage from the desktop or something like that?
14:41 <Nikolay[m]> polkit is installed
14:41 <asyd> .s 14
14:41 <asyd> oups
14:41 <Nikolay[m]> I need to mount android storage
14:41 <Nikolay[m]> gvfs-mtp
14:43 <TBB> ah, okay. I haven't done that on Alpine.
14:45 <tmh1999> I thought android requires jmtpfs/mtpfs/mtp-tools
14:46 <TBB> seems to work with gvfs-mtp
14:46 <TBB> maybe add udisks2 as well
14:47 <TBB> that's basically the setup I have for one of my Alpine machines here and connecting the phone to it (it uses mtp as well) seems to work
14:48 <Nikolay[m]> it still doesn't work
14:48 <Nikolay[m]> Do I need to reboot?
14:48 <TBB> udisks2 in turn needs udev and if you want to give a regular user the permission to mount then udisks2 needs some extra configuration for that
14:50 <TBB> I should probably write a howto to the wiki about it
14:52 <Nikolay[m]> I think I broke alpine linux
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14:54 <Nikolay[m]> No. It was trying to boot from cd
14:56 <Nikolay[m]> after reboot it works fine
14:56 <Nikolay[m]> thanks
14:56 <Nikolay[m]> working with regular user without extra configuration
14:59 <Nikolay[m]> cdrom is mounting but not mtp
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15:01 <mps> I started to work with apkbuild for mtpfs, but didn't finished yet
15:02 <Nikolay[m]> But I can compile it myself right?
15:04 <mps> yes, right
15:04 <mps> https://github.com/cjd/mtpfs
15:04 <mps> ./configure --disable-mad ; make
15:05 <mps> if you don't need mad support, I don't
15:05 <Nikolay[m]> thanks
15:05 <Nikolay[m]> what is mad?
15:06 <mps> and you need development environment installed plus libmtp-dev glib-dev for mtpfs
15:06 <mps> apk info libmad
15:06 <mps> A high-quality MPEG audio decoder
15:08 <Nikolay[m]> cannot find install-sh, install.sh, or shtool
15:08 <mps> apk add alpine-sdk
15:09 <mps> and 'apk add abuild' would be useful
15:10 <duncan^> abuild is a dependency of alpine-sdk
15:10 <mps> thought so but was not sure
15:10 <Nikolay[m]> there is still that error
15:12 <mps> Nikolay[m]: please read at the wiki how to set up development environment and find which packages you need to install for particular packages
15:12 <Nikolay[m]> before that I compiled freeciv fine
15:13 <mps> you have to figure which packages are needed, I can't give list from the head
15:15 <mps> if you compiled freeciv you understand how to build upstream software on linux, I presume
15:17 <duncan^> What are you trying to compile?
15:18 <Nikolay[m]> mtpfs
15:19 <duncan^> ./configure && make && make install PREFIX="/" DESTDIR="~/.local/" should do it. You may have to run autoreconf etc to create the configure script.
15:20 <duncan^> yep, you definitely need to run 'autoreconf --install'
15:21 <TBB> idk, I got even mtp to work without resorting to mtpfs
15:22 <Nikolay[m]> in thunar "unable to open MTP device"
15:22 <TBB> the only thing I have added to what I described above is the udisks2 polkit configuration file
15:23 <TBB> well, that and plugdev group and added the user to that group
15:23 <Nikolay[m]> I'm in plugdev
15:24 <mps> btw, mtpfs is cli tool
15:24 <mps> not a gui
15:24 <Nikolay[m]> how can i setup that udisks2 polkit conf file
15:25 <Nikolay[m]> yes I know
15:26 <TBB> https://github.com/coldfix/udiskie/wiki/Permissions - that's pretty much it
15:26 <Nikolay[m]> thanks
15:27 <TBB> there's subject.isInGroup("storage") near the end; I've replaced that with plugdev
15:28 <Nikolay[m]> okay
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15:31 <tya99> do we have this in alpine linux https://packages.debian.org/stretch/ndisc6
15:32 <Elsmorian> Is there any documentation anywhere that explains Alpine's packaging choices? Such as why 3.7 only has Postgres10 and not any of the other still supported major versions?
15:37 <Nikolay[m]> nevermind. i better send files through email
15:39 <zNVxxliww5gP> tya99: asks pkgs.alpinelinux.org
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15:39 <Nikolay[m]> file upload window is white -_-
15:39 <zNVxxliww5gP> or apk search
15:39 <tya99> yeah unless it is called something else :S
15:40 <zNVxxliww5gP> you can look for contents of pkgs not only pkg names there....
15:41 <tya99> oh
15:41 <zNVxxliww5gP> yw
15:44 <tya99> i don't think it is there
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19:35 <qwertty> #alpine-devel
19:38 <Entroacceptor> Hi, I'm trying to automate setup of some alpine vms, and I couldn't find a way to actually run the setup from virt-install. For Debian for example I can inject a preseed.cfg into the initrd.
19:42 <TBB> did you look into answer files?
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19:47 <Entroacceptor> TBB: yeah, but I didn't find a way to automatically run the setup. I don't ever want to touch the console on that vm
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20:25 <qwertty> hi, have a problem with starting X (amd kabini hd 8180 video card). Xorg.0.log: https://dpaste.de/c8Sp/raw, /etc/X11/xorg.conf: https://dpaste.de/zosT/raw
20:30 <qwertty> /etc/modules: af_packet, radeon, fbcon. features of /etc/mkinitfs/mkinitfs.conf contains kms.
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21:20 <slowbrownfox> Hello to anyone. I am a new Alpine Linux user and I am trying to figure out how to get packages that are unavailable in the existing repositories. Basically compiling packages with GCC + musl I guess.
21:22 <_ikke_> slowbrownfox: hey, welcome
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21:24 <slowbrownfox> Hi. Thanks.
21:25 <slowbrownfox> How do you deal with packages not available on Alpine?
21:35 <pardis> First of all, have you enabled the community repo by uncommenting it in /etc/apk/repositories? That has some packages not available from main
21:35 <slowbrownfox> yes. Thanks.
21:35 <pardis> The testing repo has even more packages but those are only built for edge and not releases, but you can build them yourself for a release with abuild if you want
21:35 <pardis> Other than that you can either build software yourself (and maybe try to package it for Alpine), or use a chroot or container with some other distro
21:36 <slowbrownfox> Is the musl thing a big deal usually? I was thinking of trying to sometimes 'steal' a package from Void Linux because they also are musl based.
21:36 <pardis> musl tends to be a bigger deal with proprietary software that was compiled for glibc
21:37 <Zipheir> Yeah, it's the blobs that are the problem, usually.
21:37 <pardis> It is usually source-compatible, especially for software which has been ported to other systems like *BSDs
21:38 <slowbrownfox> I don't mind the compile times but I have never compiled anything with Linux before. I guess I need to install GCC and follow the glibc make instructions? Will it automatically use the musl c library in Alpine?
21:38 <pardis> Yes
21:38 <pardis> The standard './configure; make; sudo make install' will be sufficient for most software
21:38 <slowbrownfox> Does it often work to just follow the Make instructions? I also need to install GNU Make I assume.
21:39 <slowbrownfox> Oh ok.
21:39 <pardis> If you install the build-base package you'll get the stuff you need for compiling C and C++ software
21:39 <pardis> Including make and gcc
21:40 <slowbrownfox> I guess I should mess around with that for a while and see if I have any problems. What kind of problems typically pop up due to musl?
21:40 <Zipheir> Different headers than glibc, lack of ludicrous GNU extensions :)
21:41 <slowbrownfox> Hmm. Yeah I noticed something about headers in some Void Linux comments about one of the packages I want (GPM).
21:42 <Zipheir> You may want to look at https://wiki.musl-libc.org/functional-differences-from-glibc.html
21:43 <slowbrownfox> Ah. A very useful link.
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21:48 <_ikke_> slowbrownfox: also: https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Creating_an_Alpine_package
21:48 <_ikke_> in case you didn't found this already
21:48 <slowbrownfox> I looked into creating a package but I have never used git before and it looks awfully complicated. I want to learn that too, but I'd better start with just seeing if I can compile something for my own system.
21:49 <_ikke_> yeah, the git part you can ignore for now
21:49 <_ikke_> though the basics are not that hard
21:50 <slowbrownfox> I did look for a beginners guide to git, but for now I guess I should focus on seeing if I have any compilation problems.
21:50 <slowbrownfox> I expect that compiling GPM or GPM2 will be a lot easier than something like Englightenment.
21:51 <slowbrownfox> Englightenment
21:51 <slowbrownfox> Sigh. Enlightenment.
21:51 <Xe> honestly i'd suggest starting out with something like a suckless tool for building a package
21:51 <Xe> suckless tools are really good for being simple to package
21:53 <slowbrownfox> Do those tools need to be compiled from source in Alpine?
21:53 <Xe> generally you should prefer compiling things from source in general
21:53 <Xe> but, for Alpine you have to compile a lot more things from source due to the fact that Alpine doesn't ship with glibc
21:54 <slowbrownfox> Yeah I was reading that when considering Gentoo. I really don't mind compiling if it actually works.
21:54 <Xe> so binaries compiled against glibc don't always work (there's hacks, but they're hacks)
21:54 <_ikke_> And if you want to contribute to Alpine, it almost always have to come from source
21:55 <Xe> (if the binary is statically linked however, you're probably fine but YMMV)
21:55 <slowbrownfox> But I thought dynamic linking was the rule with glibc and just in general these days.
21:56 <Xe> depends on what language is being compiled, what compiler is being used. Go for one prefers statically linked binaries when possible.
21:57 <slowbrownfox> Personally when I write my own programs I statically link as a rule because of the portability advantage.
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21:58 <Zipheir> Dynamic linking sort of has to be the rule with glibc, since the library _really_ isn't designed with static linking in mind.
21:58 <_ikke_> It does make it more difficult to keep things updated
21:58 <slowbrownfox> Yeah I was reading about that. Another holy war.
21:59 <slowbrownfox> That is why I like musl. At least the idea of it. And I guess it is smaller too.
22:02 <slowbrownfox> I noticed that Alpine beat even TinyCore in terms of memory footprint on a Raspberry Pi. Very impressive that.
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22:07 <slowbrownfox> Looking for suckless build tools and found tcc (https://bellard.org/tcc/). Anyone using that?
22:08 <Zipheir> Ah, tcc.
22:08 <Zipheir> It's still developed, I think, but pretty randomly.
22:09 <slowbrownfox> Oh yeah. 5 years old and abandoned.
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22:10 <slowbrownfox> Looks interesting though. Wonder how it compares to GCC now.
22:10 <Zipheir> There's also https://github.com/8l/scc by some ex-suckless people.
22:11 <Zipheir> (For members of fringe UNIX cults who think optimizing compilers were invented by Satan)
22:13 <slowbrownfox> I will never understand why people will but so much time into a project without bothering to explain to the world why they started it in the first place.
22:13 <slowbrownfox> put
22:14 <Zipheir> The 'why?' is usually 'yak shaving'
22:14 <slowbrownfox> The first thing I would want to do is explain to people what the point of my software project was.
22:14 <rain1> scc is for MSX retrocomputer
22:14 <rain1> its not useful for modern computers
22:15 <rain1> also the code is pretty awful
22:15 <Zipheir> Yeah.
22:15 <rain1> I created a minimal build tool to replace 'make'
22:15 <slowbrownfox> Yak shaving. Haha. Yeah I think the problem is programmers often hate writing documentation, but still a brief explanation is not that hard to write.
22:15 <rain1> it supports incremental builds but not parallel builds
22:16 <rain1> https://github.com/rain-1/makes
22:16 <Zipheir> scc lost me when the author started repeating the old 'optimization is the programmer's responsibility' bogus
22:17 <slowbrownfox> That looks interesting.
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22:17 <Zipheir> slowbrownfox: You're missing the grumpy C snob mindset: the code _is_ the documentation, and if you don't understand it, fuck off :)
22:18 <slowbrownfox> Haha. They are expecting people to actually read their code?
22:18 <Zipheir> Also, comments are unnecessary because our code is perfect.
22:19 <slowbrownfox> Well that I can sympathize with, but I really think lots of comments is better practice.
22:19 <slowbrownfox> As well as some kind of overall strategy or pseudo-code document.
22:20 <rain1> I think it would be awesome if someone wrote a good quality minimal C compiler
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22:20 <slowbrownfox> Well what do you think of the tcc project?
22:20 <rain1> these extremely powerful optimizing compilers like gcc and llvm have their place but I want something nice and simple too
22:20 <rain1> I like tcc... but it was definitely based on an IOCCC entry
22:21 <rain1> it's incredible that it's capable of building (early) gcc though!
22:21 <Zipheir> Given that C is a small, primitive*AHEM* simple language, you'd really expect there to be 500 options for compilers.
22:22 <slowbrownfox> Yeah it is a bit disappointing.
22:24 <rain1> it's a project I sort of want to do but know better :)
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22:25 <rain1> it would really be a timesink
22:25 <slowbrownfox> It would be cool though. I really like minimalism.
22:27 <slowbrownfox> Are any of you using Wayland on Alpine?
22:27 <Zipheir> Nope, and I'm hoping it will never come to that. :-)
22:27 <slowbrownfox> Seems logical to me for a grsec distro. Or maybe The grsec distro.
22:28 <pardis> Alpine no longer uses grsec
22:28 <Zipheir> Yeah, those days are over.
22:28 <slowbrownfox> Wait what?
22:28 <pardis> And that's not really relevant to Wayland at all, regardless
22:28 <slowbrownfox> Wayland is more secure.
22:28 <Zipheir> Hah.
22:28 <slowbrownfox> in terms of shared processes
22:28 <slowbrownfox> sandboxing etc
22:29 <slowbrownfox> What was the last grsec version?
22:30 <pardis> Alpine 3.7's "hardened" kernel is based on the last public grsec patch
22:30 <pardis> 3.8 will ship without a hardened kernel
22:30 <slowbrownfox> Wow
22:30 <slowbrownfox> Now that is disappointing.
22:31 <Xe> the latest intel secvulns are most of why IIRC
22:32 <Zipheir> grsec has been badly mishandled, it's probably not much of a loss.
22:32 <pardis> Well, no, the reason why is that grsec patches are no longer public and forward-porting them to newer kernels is non-trivial
22:33 <pardis> If it weren't the Meltdown/Spectre fixes that prompted it, there would have been another reason why a newer kernel was desirable sooner or later
22:33 <slowbrownfox> Even badly mishandled it was such a lovely idea
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22:34 <Zipheir> How not to be security developers: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/03/linux_kernel_grsecurity_sues_bruce_perens_for_defamation/
22:35 <slowbrownfox> We all have to make a living but it seems the grsecurity guys really screwed the pooch.
22:35 <slowbrownfox> If modern software has proven anything it is that the most important thing is to have users. Lots of them. Money can come later.
22:36 <pardis> If the most important thing were to have users, Ubuntu would be the best distro
22:37 <slowbrownfox> Well I meant in terms of making money eventually. Somehow.
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22:37 <slowbrownfox> At least some users.
22:39 <slowbrownfox> Looks like grsecurity is going to end up with a handful of corporate clients and that's it. They soon will be irrelevant.
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22:39 <slowbrownfox> And yet they created something wonderful.
22:39 <slowbrownfox> Which now the world will not be benefiting from.
22:40 <Zipheir> There's nothing stopping the grsec guys from selling their work, but their current closed-open-source thing is really likely to end up in a GPL lawsuit eventually.
22:40 <b0nn> hi all i am trying to build a Docker image with alpine and i cannot find a package... libressl-dev is missing
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22:45 <mps> b0nn: apk add libressl-dev
22:48 <slowbrownfox> I really like grsec. I wonder how long I could safely use 3.7.
22:49 <programmerq> b0nn▸ b0nn as far as I can tell, libressl was added in alpine 3.5.
22:50 <slowbrownfox> I assume I've got at least a year.
22:50 <Zipheir> Until 2019-11, I believe.
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23:13 <slowbrownfox> I'd like to pay grsecurity for their new patches and then release them into the wild for free.
23:13 <slowbrownfox> But I doubt I can afford their prices.
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23:15 <slowbrownfox> I wonder if grsecurity would sue a distro maintainer who included pirated grsec patches.
23:20 <Zipheir> They'd fall on their faces, since their patches are GPL'd. But they cut off the subscription of anyone who 'releases them into the wild'.
23:22 <Zipheir> Although a lawsuit would cost said distro maintainer a lot, and grsecurity have shown themselves to be fans of SLAPP...
23:22 <rain1> didn't copperhead OS do the same kind of model/
23:22 <rain1> that whole idea of subverting the GPL is pretty skeezy
23:22 <slowbrownfox> https://www.whonix.org/blog/beyond-grsecurity-future-linux-security-brighter-ever
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23:23 <slowbrownfox> Was just reading that. Whonix blog encouraging people to leak the privately released patches. Hehe.
23:26 <slowbrownfox> I don't think it's a big deal that the leaker's subscription would be terminated. Someone else would have to release them next time.
23:27 <jn__> sounds similar to the situation with IDA Pro :)
23:28 <Zipheir> Heh, that reminds me of what rms did in the 80s with working for two (proprietary) LISP machine companies at once and ensuring that all of one's good ideas got copied into the other's code. :)
23:30 <slowbrownfox> If I had more money I would definitely do it. Although my tiny income might give me a cheaper subscription price. I wonder how I could prove to the grsec guys that I am poor. Still there are no more grsec distros now. I would have to start one I guess.
23:31 <Zipheir> I vote that it be called Pure Garbage Linux, as a tribute to Linus' characterization of grsec. :-)
23:31 <slowbrownfox> Haha. Yeah I like that.
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