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00:02 <glguy> robkennedy: The type 'o' can't float out of (forall i. c i => i -> o) because we don't know what c is
00:02 <glguy> c could have equality constraints
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00:03 <glguy> and type families are not injective, so 'o' isn't available under FullOf'
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00:07 <Axman6> bgamari: yeah the first definition I stumbled across was v1, which has een replaced by v2 which seems to be much better specified: http://docs.opengeospatial.org/is/12-063r5/12-063r5.html#13 in particular, it outlines what a <number> is, which the old one left unspecified... who even does that
00:07 <bgamari> heh
00:07 <bgamari> that may explain it
00:08 <bgamari> would you like to fix this or should i?
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00:08 <Axman6> bgamari: I might give it a go if I have time, but today it least that's looking unlikely :)
00:08 <bgamari> I can have a look tonight
00:10 <Axman6> don't rush into it on my account though, I don't have a good usecase for it yet, just wanted a nicer structure for dealing with projection descriptions.
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00:11 <* Axman6> has grand but probably very ambitious plan to rewrite proj4 in Haskell
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00:14 <bgamari> Axman6, that would be great
00:14 <bgamari> we could really use some better geospatial tools
00:14 <* bgamari> has done some hydrological modelling in Haskell and it was quite painful
00:15 <Axman6> yes,very much so. I was surprised how understandable proj4 actually is tbh
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00:17 <robkennedy> How can I silence unused errors for data constructors (since I can't use `newtype F = _F {unF :: Int}`)
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00:18 <glguy> You can export the data constructor
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00:20 <robkennedy> Yeah, but it's an internal type. Seems like the hack will be to replace an unF site with the F syntax
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00:21 <glguy> It's an internal type for which you never construct a value?
00:22 <`Guest00000> there are no functions fractional :: Double -> Double and floor_f :: Double -> Double in Haskell????
00:22 <robkennedy> Or like, I have example values in my code I don't export called like `_example`, but I can't have example types called _Example
00:22 <`Guest00000> nooo
00:23 <Axman6> glguy: what do you want those functions to do?
00:23 <Axman6> uh, `Guest00000
00:24 <robkennedy> :t fromIntegral . floor :: Double -> Double
00:24 <lambdabot> Double -> Double
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00:24 <`Guest00000> Axman6: return the fractional part and return floor
00:24 <`Guest00000> robkennedy: but that's probably inefficient
00:24 <glguy> :t properFraction
00:24 <lambdabot> (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> (b, a)
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00:25 <Axman6> `Guest00000: "probably" sounds like you haven't tested
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00:26 <Axman6> :t truncate
00:26 <lambdabot> (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
00:26 <Axman6> hmm
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00:28 <robkennedy> > properFraction pi
00:28 <lambdabot> (3,0.14159265358979312)
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00:51 <`Guest00000> so
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00:51 <`Guest00000> i just tested it
00:51 <`Guest00000> and, as https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-January/038022.html says, those are slow
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00:52 <`Guest00000> int2Double . double2Int is faster
00:52 <`Guest00000> but it's non-portable
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00:57 <glguy> `Guest00000: You get that for free after optimizations
00:57 <glguy> test :: Double -> Double; test x = fromIntegral (truncate x :: Int) -- compiles to
00:58 <glguy> \x -> case x of D# y -> D# (int2Double# (double2Int# y))
00:58 <`Guest00000> that brings me to the question of how explicit the optimizations should be
00:58 <`Guest00000> because implicit = unreliable
00:59 <robkennedy> Man, `snd . properFraction` ought to be optimal. You could submit a PR to make `properFraction = (,) <$> intToDouble . doubleToInt <*> (\x -> x - doubleToInt x)`
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00:59 <glguy> robkennedy: that's already what it is
00:59 <glguy> if you specify Int
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01:00 <`Guest00000> ohh
01:00 <robkennedy> Sorry, that doesn't typecheck, but you get what I mean
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01:00 <robkennedy> glguy: tight
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01:02 <`Guest00000> glguy: hmm no
01:03 <`Guest00000> i just tested snd . (properFraction :: Double -> (Int, Double))
01:03 <`Guest00000> has same slowness
01:03 <`Guest00000> well
01:03 <`Guest00000> will try -O...
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01:04 <glguy> You forgot the optimization flag when timing the previous one?
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01:06 <`Guest00000> ok
01:06 <`Guest00000> with optimizations, int2Double . double2Int seems slightly faster...
01:06 <`Guest00000> than snd . properFraction with Int
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01:07 <glguy> fromIntegral . (truncate :: Double -> Int)
01:07 <glguy> for some reason the snd . properFraction version does an extra test
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01:09 <`Guest00000> ok
01:09 <`Guest00000> thanks for replies
01:10 <`Guest00000> it's awful that by default fromIntegral . truncate will specialize to Integer and be slower
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01:12 <hpc> something for HaskellPrime maybe?
01:12 <hpc> specializing to Int is a bit of a concession, but maybe being explicit about numbers that large is better than being explicit about optimizations
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01:19 <`Guest00000> but still
01:19 <`Guest00000> frac :: Double -> Double isn't even in prelude
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03:15 <Koterpillar> Is there a library to ulimit one's process (specifically memory)?
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03:16 <kadoban> There's RTS flags for that as I recall, if it's a haskell program. And I believe they can be compiled in.
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03:17 <c_wraith> you can also set the maximum number of allocations for a specific forkIO thread
03:18 <Koterpillar> there's some kind of a leak in non-Haskell code I'm calling via FFI
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03:24 <Claudius1aximus> Koterpillar: you could FFI out to setrlimit() perhaps, not sure if there's a binding already
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03:58 <xlaech> wow :) Didn't expect so much people in here
03:59 <kadoban> :)
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04:04 <haskull> could someone with the latest ghc version test if https://hastebin.com/zihagukafi.hs causes a panic?
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04:09 <jake___> @help
04:09 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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04:20 <deepfire> is there a typeclass that would give a least upper bound on pairs of Linear.V2.V2? I.e. (V2 0 1) (V2 1 0) -> (V2 1 1)
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04:21 <deepfire> I have tried to peruse the V2 class haddocks, yet to no avail..
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04:24 <deepfire> I'm seeing Data.Lub, but is that all?
04:24 <deepfire> Data.Lub has no instances for V2.. not that they aren't trivial to provide, but if there already is such a class with instances, then why not..
04:25 <Claudius1aximus> haskull: no panic in ghci-8.0.2, just a type error
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04:31 <sssilver> I'm so fucking annoyed, there's this guy in my company that keeps arguing that OOP is the only true way and exercising functional programming is "ignoring 40 years of programming research" and going back to 60ies
04:31 <sssilver> the worst part is that he reviews everyone's pull requests and just keeps imposing this crap
04:31 <Rotaerk> immediate aversion is the reaction I get from a lot of people the moment I start suggesting concepts related to FP
04:31 <erisco> this person sounds fictional
04:32 <sssilver> erisco I can actually paste slabs of arguments on slack
04:32 <sssilver> *from slack
04:32 <Koterpillar> wrap everything in appropriate Action<> classes or equivalents :P
04:33 <erisco> I trust you. A perfect FP antagonist is just unlikely
04:33 <sssilver> "why is this function an orphan?" is a question I had to answer today
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04:33 <orion> ha
04:33 <Rotaerk> erisco, but imperfect ones are common?
04:33 <erisco> yes
04:34 <erisco> like the ones with aversion you meet ;)
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04:34 <Rotaerk> heh
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04:34 <erisco> though usually it is a dismissive "sounds cool"
04:34 <sssilver> I get it that people have opinions but I just hate this air of relentless self-righteousness
04:34 <deepfire> investment, danger, etc.
04:35 <Rotaerk> it's often dismissive until I cross a threshold and then it's SHUT UP
04:35 <sssilver> it's almost like he finally grasped the concept of polymorphism, and can't get enough
04:35 <Rotaerk> (over a long period of time)
04:36 <erisco> sssilver, people with strong convictions like that tend to not know a lot -- it is a natural consequence
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04:37 <sssilver> we have a large number of junior programmers who can't tell if wisdom and experience or bullshit
04:37 <sssilver> and I just get so freaking annoyed
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04:37 <sssilver> I need to learn to be bold and brash and stuff
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04:38 <Rotaerk> well, it's a sign of the beginner when a person relies on rules of thumb (such as "best practices") to govern their decisions
04:38 <Rotaerk> it's the sign of an *expert* beginner when a person dogmatically adheres to these rules of thumb as dogma
04:38 <sssilver> he's not a beginner, he has like 15 years of experience shipping fairly large systems
04:38 <Rotaerk> (reference to http://www.daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/)
04:38 <erisco> the expert beginner, heh :P that is a keen description
04:39 <sssilver> the expert beginner aka "the professional that lacked talent"?
04:39 <orion> That's a great article.
04:39 <sssilver> *the experienced professional that lacked talent
04:40 <erisco> I haven't read that article, but to me that term sounds to the phenomenon of people being most confident when they know just a little bit
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04:40 <erisco> confidence tends to go from "I know nothing" to "I know everything" to "I know little"
04:41 <Rotaerk> the article does mention the dunning kruger effect
04:41 <nshepperd> heh, "orphan" functions. this program needs more implicit state!
04:42 <johnw> for a list [Word8], how much memory is allocated for each Word8 stored? I'm not sure how large the header blocks are on a 64-bit system, for example
04:42 <erisco> how could you possibly be satisfied with that answer johnw? :P the overhead on a byte will at least be another byte
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04:43 <johnw> which answer?
04:43 <erisco> to your question
04:43 <johnw> I don't understand what you're saying then
04:43 <Rotaerk> lol
04:43 <johnw> I want to know how much memory is allocated by [0] :: [Word8]
04:44 <erisco> the answer is A. I am saying A >= 2 bytes, and based on that I am saying the price on a byte is too high
04:44 <johnw> erisco: I think you're answering a question I'm not asking
04:44 <johnw> I don't care that the overhead exists, I'm asking how much it is, exactly, in bytes
04:45 <johnw> or, alternatively, how to find that out
04:45 <johnw> I've forgotten what the Haskell equivalent to sizeof is...
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04:47 <johnw> ah, @hackage ghc-datasize
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04:48 <erisco> I think you want to know sizeof [0] - sizeof []
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04:48 <johnw> yeah, likely that
04:50 <Rotaerk> deepfire, could you do something like... liftA2 max (V2 0 1) (V2 1 0)
04:50 <Rotaerk> can't test it myself, at the moment
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04:51 <Rotaerk> or replace liftA2 with mzipWith, since it's implemented as liftA2 for V2
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04:52 <Rotaerk> > V2 0 1
04:52 <lambdabot> error:
04:52 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: V2 :: Integer -> Integer -> t
04:52 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant variable ‘_2’ (imported from Control.Lens)
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04:53 <nshepperd> johnw: i seem to recall it being 24 bytes per item
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04:56 <deepfire> Rotaerk, thank you, that worked like a charm!
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04:57 <Rotaerk> \o/
04:57 <deepfire> that's a good implementation for a HasLub instance : -)
04:58 <johnw> nshepperd: so, there's cons header, cons pointer to Word8, cons pointer to next cell; Word8 header, pointer to Word8 contents; Word8 data. Unless the constructor syntax "W8# Word#" implies some kind of unpacking...
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04:59 <nshepperd> or maybe it's more...oh wait, maybe 24 bytes is just list spine
04:59 <johnw> yeah, definitely 24 in spine
05:01 <nshepperd> so... 24 + 16 = 40 bytes? I think Word# is indeed unpacked
05:01 <johnw> hmm.. GHC.DataSize.recursiveSize says that [0] :: [Word8] uses 376 bytes of memory?
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05:02 <johnw> and recursizeSizeNF is 600?
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05:02 <ertes> is there a way to set link flags from the Main module via a pragma or some other means to specify a C dependency without cabal or command line?
05:03 <Rotaerk> how do you learn about these low level properties of haskell/ghc?
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05:04 <nshepperd> johnw: `recursiveSize $! force ([1]::[Word8]` gives me 48 in ghci
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05:04 <johnw> isn't that what recursiveSizeNF does?
05:04 <johnw> ah, $! makes the difference
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05:05 <nshepperd> recursiveSizeNF looks like a mistake :/
05:05 <johnw> it does, weird numbers
05:05 <nshepperd> it applys `force` but doesn't actually evaluate the value
05:05 <johnw> so, 40 bytes per element, plus 8 for nil
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05:07 <kadoban> 376 sounds pretty high, wonder how that adds up. Every possible piece like ... 3? could be a thunk, and then the actual required sizes of stuff? Hmm.
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05:07 <johnw> nshepperd had it right with 24 + 16
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05:10 <nshepperd> kadoban: in ghci it's probably a pointer to some extremely unoptimized code for building the list
05:10 <kadoban> Ahh
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05:13 <nshepperd> especially with numbers, you've got a whole thunk just to call fromInteger in there
05:13 <nshepperd> (and then another one to build the integer i guess)
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05:57 <sssilver> do you guys agree that the whole "haskell is hard, it'll brake your teeth" crap is very damaging and misleading and stifles proliferation? it almost seems like a guided narrative
05:57 <sssilver> I consider myself a below average programmer and it's so much easier for me to write bug free code in a language that won't allow me to mess up
05:58 <sssilver> than in a language where I, having my subpar brain, will forget to check for null, or modify state somewhere wrong and forget about it, etc
05:58 <sssilver> Why don't we pursue the Python narrative of "Haskell is programming for the rest of us"
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06:00 <orion> Break your teeth? That's usually what I hear about C.
06:01 <sssilver> orion I think the common narrative is that Haskell is the apogee of programming language "hardness"
06:01 <sssilver> only the enlightened ones have the mental capability to even consider it, let alone approach it
06:01 <dminuoso> sssilver: In C you modify state wrong, in Haskell you reduce to a wrong value. You still get to make *that* mistake :P
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06:03 <orion> sssilver: Unfortunately, most imperative programmers I speak with are just talented *enough* to get things working for business people. That's all you need of course.
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06:08 <orion> They don't care about functional languages because they haven't been incentivized to care.
06:08 <sssilver> like people rave about Javascript because it's approachable by noobs and then sit down and flex their muscles to deal not just with everything being potentially nullable, but freaking nullable in MULTIPLE ways!
06:09 <sssilver> I still can't grok the difference between null and undefined in Javascript
06:09 <sssilver> I mean I can, but it's quite ridiculous
06:09 <MP2E> I think a big part of it is that the tutorials I read come at it from the perspective of understanding the language step by step, and IO comes later, usually accompanied by learning about typeclasses like Monad, Functor, Applicative. For a new user, this can feel like a lot of abstract stuff to take in for something as simple as pulling in input, transforming it in a simple way, and printing it out.
06:09 <MP2E> Of course actually *doing* that isn't a big deal at all
06:10 <orion> I think words like "noobs" are divisive.
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06:11 <MP2E> I think there would be value in a tutorial/book that comes at it from the approach of writing outright imperative haskell at first to get the user off the ground running, and then later delve into the deeper stuff. Maybe there's even already something like this out there
06:11 <MP2E> I didn't have much issues learning Haskell as is, I just think it would be helpful to bring in people from other languages
06:12 <sssilver> MP2E that's roughly how Swift/Rust approach it, i.e. you start programming, and then they go "imagine if you could count on the fact that X will never be null"
06:12 <sssilver> "oh look, we actually have optionals for that!"
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06:14 <sssilver> explaining optionals to an average person who had to do a null check in every function in their Objective C code is so much easier than explaining the Maybe monad in general terms
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06:14 <sssilver> I think one issue is that Haskell books/people tend to approach explanations from a wider/more general angle
06:15 <sssilver> and there's value in approaching these things from a more narrow/practical angle
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06:15 <haskull> How would you define a monad concisely, with words any programmer would know?
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06:16 <sssilver> haskull I would probably not define a monad
06:16 <haskull> best I can do is something like "pass data between functions with nice syntax"
06:16 <sssilver> haskull interesting, that's not at all what I think when I think of monads :))
06:16 <orion> The syntax has nothing to do with the definition of a Monad.
06:17 <sssilver> I'd probably explain optionals in practical terms
06:17 <sssilver> e.g. letting the compiler infer what can be null and what cannot be
06:17 <sssilver> and then explain the concept of unwrapping an optional
06:17 <orion> haskull: The most concise, accurate, definition of a monad is the mathematical one. If you're a programmer and you don't understand (or don't *want* to understand) mathematical terms, I have to question your career choice.
06:17 <sssilver> e.g. peek in it to see whether there's value in it
06:18 <sssilver> and then perhaps suggest that the "unwrapping" could in fact be *any* action
06:18 <`Guest00000> haskull: monad is a container which has return and bind.
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06:18 <`Guest00000> and what return and bind are
06:18 <`Guest00000> that's all
06:18 <Rotaerk> haskull, I think that when someone asks what a monad is, you should just say it's an abstract concept that requires sufficient exposure to examples in order to "get"
06:18 <`Guest00000> class of containers, okay
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06:19 <Rotaerk> i.e. there's no quick way to make them go "oh, I get it"
06:19 <orion> Best definition of a Monad: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.9.1.0/docs/Control-Monad.html#t:Monad
06:19 <Rotaerk> well, at least not without misleading them
06:19 <sssilver> `Guest00000 I don't think of it as a container. I think of it as of a type that performs some action when acted upon.
06:19 <sssilver> `Guest00000 it doesn't have to contain anything at all
06:19 <Rotaerk> and the definition itself isn't sufficient for "getting" it
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06:20 <Rotaerk> unless maybe you're just used to mathematical thinking or something
06:20 <orion> haskull: Moreover, you could start by introducing functors first, then applicatives, then maybe monoids, then monads.
06:20 <sssilver> I am completely barefoot when it comes to mathematics, but I successfully ship production Haskell code, and it helps me write bug-free programs that I can actually reason about
06:20 <`Guest00000> well
06:20 <sssilver> my Haskell programs are so much less squishy than my Python programs
06:20 <monochrom> There is one aspect any programmer would not know. Monadness is for things like "Maybe" and "Reader e", not "Maybe a" and "Reader e a". Most programmers do not already have words or concepts of this.
06:21 <`Guest00000> sssilver: i might mean functor instead of "container"
06:21 <orion> sssilver: I suspect that you may find beauty in the mathematics underpinning Haskell.
06:21 <sssilver> `Guest00000 a function in my book is a Java class with a single method called call() :))
06:21 <sssilver> *a functor
06:22 <monochrom> As a corollary, "container" is wrong. Most programmers' "container" refer to things like "List<T>" and "Vector<T>". Emphatically with the <T> there.
06:22 <sssilver> monochrom +1
06:22 <Rotaerk> yea, to monochrom's point, if you want to say "monad is a ___ with a return and a bind function", the ___ should be something to the effect of "a type of kind * -> *"
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06:22 <Rotaerk> and people won't get even THAT without examples
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06:24 <sssilver> Rotaerk I think that doesn't explain what a monad is, because "something that has a return and a bind function" is just stating properties, and that's not very helpful
06:24 <Rotaerk> yes, you need to explain by *showing*, with examples, and let them intuit the concept
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06:25 <orion> sssilver: Many programmers I've met have a huge sense of entitlement when it comes to understanding. They think that if they don't understand a concept immediately without any serious study, it's my fault.
06:25 <Rotaerk> mainstream languages tend not to even support higher kinded types... I've even suggested that it'd be nice if C# supported them, and other C# programmers go "eh? why on earth would you want that?"
06:25 Sh4pe joined
06:25 <sssilver> would you explain a chair by "something that has 4 legs and a flat surface attached to them"?
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06:26 <monochrom> The reason why so many programming languages look like each other and copy each others' mistakes and stagnation is precisely because of this "everything must not exceed what programmers already know" mentality.
06:26 <Rotaerk> orion, that or it's just not something WORTH understanding, because they've done fine without it
06:26 <sssilver> that'd be pretty precise but also pretty useless to anyone who's trying to figure out what problem is chair trying to solve
06:26 <orion> Rotaerk: Indeed -- they are just good enough to get a job. They don't find value in going above and beyond the bare minimum.
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06:27 <sssilver> orion I think a lot of people are actually too humble to question the quality of their tools, so they question their own skill
06:27 `Guest03 joined
06:27 <sssilver> e.g. "my program in C++ is very buggy" ~> "I am not good a enough programmer"
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06:28 <sssilver> and from there it goes to "if you're good enough, language is just a tool"
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06:28 <orion> sssilver: How old are you? How old are the programmers you interact with regularly?
06:28 <Rotaerk> lol
06:28 <Rotaerk> "humble"
06:28 <sssilver> orion I'm 32, age of people I interact with varies from 25 to 50
06:28 dbmikus joined
06:29 <sssilver> I know what I say sounds wrong, but I think there's something to it
06:29 <orion> I'm 25. The programmers I interact with are 18-35.
06:29 <Rotaerk> I've met primarily arrogant programmers, and apathetic programmers
06:29 <Rotaerk> can't say I've met many humble ones
06:29 <orion> Rotaerk: Yes!
06:29 <monochrom> No, I don't think they question their own skill. I think they question each other's skill.
06:30 <sssilver> you can be arrogant because deep down you're compensating for the feeling of defeat
06:30 <monochrom> If you can't get "make" to work, you aren't the one questioning your IQ, someone else is.
06:31 <sssilver> monochrom that's a fair point
06:31 <pacak> But Haskell is hard.
06:31 <sssilver> pacak why?
06:31 <sssilver> C++ is fucking hard
06:31 <sssilver> anyone here that shipped any production C++ project and disagrees with me, please raise your hand
06:31 <sssilver> one, Haskell is small. It's a tiny language.
06:32 <Rotaerk> using C++ is hard, learning C++ is time consuming, but it's not that hard to understand conceptually
06:32 <sssilver> two, it doesn't have as many concepts to "understand" as your average multi-paradigm OOP language with bells and whistles
06:32 <sssilver> "so there are fundamental types and user types"
06:32 <sssilver> "and templates"
06:32 <sssilver> "and pointers, and pointer arithmetic"
06:33 <sssilver> "and exceptions and all that good stuff like throwing an exception in a destructor"
06:33 <Rotaerk> using haskell is kind of easy, learning haskell itself isn't that time consuming, but learning the concepts that let you excel in it is hard
06:33 <sssilver> "copy constructors, move semantics"
06:33 <pacak> sssilver: It allows much fancier abstraction compared to (probably not C++, but let's take ruby or javascript) and supports you in all those abstractions.
06:33 <haskull> My first real language (I'm not counting visual basic) was C++. Every couple years it just gets harder. Meanwhile, every other popular language is easy to pick up because of that. Haskell has been the biggest challenge for me since then.
06:33 <SexHendrix> hi guys, i have a feeling im missing a pattern that would make this problem less convoluted
06:33 dbmikus joined
06:34 <SexHendrix> i have a [[Int]]
06:34 <SexHendrix> which is a list of x,y coords effectively
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06:34 <sssilver> the reason Haskell was a bit hard for me is because I approached it with the mindset of "this is gonna be the hardest thing ever", and I kept looking for a black cat in a dark room that wasn't there
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06:34 <SexHendrix> i want to run down the list, doing an operation between each pair of points
06:34 <Rotaerk> SexHendrix, why not [(Int, Int)], then? [[Int]] suggests each element can vary in length
06:35 <SexHendrix> Rotaerk: well yeah but in this problem i don't think it makes a difference
06:35 <Rotaerk> k
06:35 <SexHendrix> im pretty sure what i want is some type of fold
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06:36 <SexHendrix> fn :: [[Int]] -> Int
06:36 <sssilver> SexHendrix "an operation between each pair of points"?
06:36 <sssilver> what does between mean here?
06:36 <Rotaerk> for example?
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06:36 <SexHendrix> ok, well im using coordinate geometry to calculate the area of a polygon given the vertices
06:36 <sssilver> e.g. [(a, b)] an operation would be performed between a and b?
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06:37 <sssilver> or [(a, b), (x, y)] it would be performed between (a, b) and (x, y), etc?
06:37 <SexHendrix> where A = (x1y2 - y1x2) + (x2y3 - y2x3) + ...
06:37 <pacak> sssilver: A while ago we had a competition with one guy to write a factorial computation. He used java, I used haskell hylomorphism. Haskell version worked way faster so he asked the source code to look at. It was something like 10 short lines - no imported functions, one functor, two algebras and that's about it. It took him 2 weeks to "understand" how this works and to implement the same in java. in 500+ lines.
06:38 <`Guest03> SexHendrix: "an operation between each pair of points" does it mean pairs of adjacent points in the list or all possible pairs of points from list?
06:38 <SexHendrix> adjacent points
06:38 <geppettodivacin> SexHendrix: That can be done with a fold.
06:38 <SexHendrix> from start to end
06:38 <pacak> That was probably the second program I wrote with recursion schemes but ghc and type declarations helped a lot.
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06:38 <SexHendrix> nice one
06:39 <geppettodivacin> The accumulator would store the previous value and the current calculated area.
06:39 <Rotaerk> and I think you *should* convert to [(Int, Int)]... simplifies the code
06:39 <SexHendrix> i agree
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06:39 <SexHendrix> thanks
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06:42 <`Guest03> SexHendrix: you need to fold the expression (zip l (tail l)), where l is initial list
06:43 <`Guest03> (zip l (tail l)) generates list of pairs of adjacent elements in l
06:44 <geppettodivacin> Ooh, I like that better than my solution.
06:44 <SexHendrix> i did it with the very ugly `zip (fmap head l) (fmap last l)`
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06:47 <`Guest03> SexHendrix: your expression converts [[Int]] to [(Int, Int)]. where do you get [Int]'s as points from?
06:47 raycoll joined
06:47 <`Guest03> if you need to convert them, i would do it with just "map (\[x, y] -> (x, y)) l"
06:48 <Cale> pacak: Of course, it would have been *really* embarrassing for Haskell to somehow lose at a competition for computing factorials ;)
06:48 <SexHendrix> example input comes in the string "0 0\n0 1\n1 1\n1 0"
06:48 <SexHendrix> into stdin
06:49 <SexHendrix> im thinking it through, ill be back if i get stuck
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06:51 <SexHendrix> `words <$> lines input` gets it to [[String]] then i just rained read all over it to get the [[Int]] from before
06:51 <`Guest03> SexHendrix: yeah, i'd do like you did and then just convert as i said
06:52 <pacak> Cale: I don't recall what value was it but the idea was to compute them as a tree: ((1 * 2) * (3 * 4) ) * ... rather than 1 * (2 * (3 * 4 * (... to minimize number of expensive multiplications of multi-megabyte Integers
06:52 jle` joined
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06:52 <`Guest03> plus you get program crash on invalid input data for free...
06:52 indi_ joined
06:53 <`Guest03> if a line has less or more than 2 numbers
06:53 <monochrom> It is very easy to lose at a competition for computing factorials. Even with an optimizing compiler. See http://www.luschny.de/math/factorial/FastFactorialFunctions.htm
06:53 ikke joined
06:53 <SexHendrix> `Guest03: im assured it wont ;)
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06:55 <pacak> "is even fast up to 10000!." - I think we were using something like 1000000000000000000....
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06:57 <monochrom> If you use GHC, you want to multiply two numbers of similar magnitude. You want to multiply two large numbers ASAP, not postpone it by multiplying a large number by a small number.
06:58 jle` joined
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06:58 <monochrom> This is because GHC is going to call GMP for multiplication, and reaching the multiplication of two large numbers earlier means GMP uses the advanced multipliers earlier.
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06:59 <monochrom> (Ideally you would rather call GMP's factorial function directly, which uses an even more advanced algorithm. But GHC doesn't expose this.)
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07:01 <pacak> Let's assume every number in factorial is the same. If you split a huge list in half and take product of every half you'll get two numbers with N digits each - that would be one expensive multiplication and product will give 2N. Split every of those lists in half - there will be only N/2 digits and so on.
07:01 <SexHendrix> whenever i have to write a load of horrible functions to get from input to the datatype i want, i make a function called `magic` that is just all of them composed
07:02 <pacak> If you multiply them as a tree you'll get one multiplication of size N, 2 of size N/2, 4 of size N/4 and so on
07:02 <SexHendrix> then just `magic input`
07:02 <pacak> It's much cheaper than multiplying big number by small number N times
07:03 <SexHendrix> https://ptpb.pw/DKsV :]
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07:07 <SexHendrix> input -> useful datastructure is my least favourite part of writing haskell
07:07 <`Guest03> ugh
07:07 <`Guest03> those lines on edges of triangles
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07:21 <cocreature> SexHendrix: parsing inputs is always annoying :)
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07:32 <malinoff> hi everyone, I can't google a way to inject non-code metadata (like build timestamp or Jenkins' BUILD_NUMBER) into a binary built by stack; maybe someone knows some way?
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07:32 <cocreature> malinoff: you might want to look into how gitrev embeds the git version number https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gitrev
07:33 <malinoff> cocreature: thanks, I'll take a look
07:33 <Cale> malinoff: Template Haskell splices would do.
07:33 xall joined
07:33 <cocreature> yeah that’s what gitrev uses
07:33 <Cale> You can perform IO from inside a splice.
07:34 <malinoff> Cale: awesome, thanks
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07:36 <pacak> malinoff: CPP/TH
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07:50 <quchen> Meta question. When I say »data Nat where Zero :: Nat; Succ :: Nat -> Nat«, how would I argue that Succ is already defined here, and not merely a statement of Succ’s type that has a value yet to be given (such as \_ -> 1)?
07:50 darjeeling_ joined
07:50 <quchen> In other words, where does the »uniqueness« of Succ come from?
07:51 <quchen> In a Haskell context this is clear (because well, Haskell works this way). But in type theory there is the same notation without the Haskell Report to fall back to.
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07:51 <`Guest03> i don't quite understand this
07:52 <`Guest03> neither first part nor restatement
07:52 <quchen> If you give a mathematician »succ : ℕ -> ℕ«, then succ could be any function from ℕ to ℕ.
07:53 <quchen> But when we have a functional language (Haskell, Agda), the »succ« in a data definition gives us a unique way to go from one Nat to another.
07:54 <quchen> It’s not any general function from ℕ to ℕ, it’s »the successor function«. I’m wondering where that comes from.
07:54 <`Guest03> the succ gives an unique way because it is unique
07:54 <`Guest03> if you had Succ1, Succ2
07:54 <`Guest03> would no longer be unique
07:54 <quchen> Why is it unique? I can think of many other functions of type ℕ → ℕ.
07:54 malinoff left
07:55 <`Guest03> is your question "why does Succ denote the successor function instead of anything else?"?
07:55 refold joined
07:55 <quchen> Yes, sounds right
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07:56 <quchen> Is it maybe given not by the data definition alone, but also by the accompanying destructor (i.e. that you can pattern match on it), and the two are mutually inverse?
07:57 <`Guest03> i think we should distinguish the constructor and the function
07:57 <barrucadu> I think the fact that you can pattern match on the Succ is key
07:57 <`Guest03> defining the constructor (the element in the list of constructors) gives rise to a function
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07:58 <dmwit_> quchen: you know about lfp def. of inductive types?
07:59 <quchen> LFP?
07:59 <ClaudiusMaximus> makes me think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_group#Examples and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_%28group_theory%29
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07:59 <dmwit> least fixed point
07:59 <quchen> dmwit: No, I don’t
07:59 <dmwit> okay
07:59 <dmwit> take any set
07:59 <`Guest03> the notion "any functions N -> N" is meaningless before we define the set of constructors for N
08:00 <`Guest03> it's a weird question
08:00 <quchen> `Guest03: Oh, good point! Maybe I don’t know what a function is either then ;-)
08:00 <dmwit> choose some fresh symbols, i'll call them zero and succ for absolutelp no reason ;-)
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08:00 <quchen> dmwit: Resemblence to existing natural numbers is purely coincidential
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08:01 <dmwit> define nat(s) = { zero } U { succ(n) | n \in s }
08:02 connrs joined
08:02 <dmwit> so for any set, we can ex.and the set by one this way
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08:02 <dmwit> *expand
08:03 <`Guest03> why does 0 denote the number zero?
08:03 <dmwit> now i ask, are there any sets for which nat(s)=s?
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08:04 <dmwit> turns out there are lots. but a few are special
08:04 <quchen> »ex.«?
08:04 <quchen> Oh.
08:04 <quchen> Nevermind.
08:04 <quchen> I see where this is going, but please carry on :-)
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08:05 <dmwit> in particular there is a smallest such set
08:05 <dmwit> in the sense that it is a subset of any other set that has this property
08:06 <dmwit> that set looks suspiciously like the natural numbers
08:06 <quchen> What are other sets that satisfy nat(s)=s?
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08:08 <dmwit> ones that have elements consistitg of infinitely-deeply-applied succ, e.g.
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08:08 <SexHendrix> `Guest03: finished that problem finally
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08:08 <SexHendrix> http://lpaste.net/353335
08:08 <SexHendrix> still seems like a right mess
08:08 <dmwit> rather than just infinitely many elemenns, each of which have only finitely deeply applied succs
08:09 <quchen> I see.
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08:09 <`Guest03> omg
08:10 <`Guest03> why do you need [([Int], [Int])] ?
08:10 <dmwit> so one can and sometimes does take this as a def. of the nats
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08:10 <SexHendrix> `Guest03: i got bored of constantly transforming the input
08:10 <SexHendrix> and like that it just about worked
08:10 <quchen> dmwit: But now we have another problem: you used »succ« in your definition. Where does that come from?
08:10 <`Guest03> also, "(fmap . fmap) read $ words" looks convoluted. do you understand the meaning of the first fmap?
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08:11 <quchen> dmwit: zero I can see being just some arbitrary object. But succ has the same uniqueness problem I mentioned initially it seems.
08:11 <`Guest03> the first fmap is function composition
08:11 <dmwit> quchen: i told you: pick a fresh value
08:11 <quchen> dmwit: succ acts as a sort of tag, right?
08:11 <SexHendrix> i know fmap (fmap function) = fmap . fmap function
08:11 <`Guest03> which composes (fmap read) and words
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08:11 <SexHendrix> i was trying to dig in twice
08:11 <dmwit> quchen: yep, sure
08:11 <quchen> dmwit: I guess I don’t understand what a fresh value is for a function
08:12 <dmwit> quchen: in fact it's not even im.artant that it be fresh, only that it be injective and distinguishable from zero
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08:13 <quchen> It seems like it’s a function without a definition, that is, it has no ways to react on inputs.
08:13 takle joined
08:13 <quchen> (Hence me seeing it as a tagging device)
08:14 <`Guest03> oh well
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08:14 <`Guest03> i guess my metric of convolutedness was meaningless
08:14 <dmwit> quchen: e.g. succ(x) = (1, x); zero = (0, 0) is a fine choice if you are happy that we can def. 0, 1, and pairing
08:15 <quchen> dmwit: I see. (I’m happy with pairing and having some 0 and 1)
08:15 <`Guest03> aha.
08:15 <`Guest03> you use ([Int], [Int]) for pairs of points...
08:15 <`Guest03> you should use ((Int, Int), (Int, Int))
08:16 <`Guest03> but whatever
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08:17 <dmwit> quchen: but often we don't care to make everything depend on set theory
08:17 <SexHendrix> noted
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08:18 <dmwit> so we start from the inductive def. and go from there
08:18 <SexHendrix> i did have another magic' function that put it in [(Int, Int)]
08:18 <SexHendrix> but by then i already wanted to pull my eyeballs out
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08:18 <dmwit> that is: zero is a nat, and if n is a nat, then succ(n) is a nat
08:19 <quchen> Sure, but that holds even if succ(n) ≡ 0.
08:19 <dmwit> this is simultaneously a def. of nat, succ, and zero
08:20 <dmwit> no, succ isn't just any old function
08:20 <quchen> Ah right, the (n,1) tuple example you gave.
08:20 <dmwit> implicit in my sentenge i guess is that succ is injective and not the identity
08:21 <quchen> dmwit: Hm. I guess »a type« is not simply the type, but the tuple (formation, constructors, elimination), and not merely the »ℕ«. So »the natural numbers« is (ℕ, {0, succ}, recurse) rather than just »the thing made with 0 and succ«
08:21 <dmwit> a similar implicit applies to other inductive def.s of course
08:22 <dmwit> quchen: absolutely agree
08:22 <quchen> so Tuple = (a -> b -> Set, a -> b -> Tuple a b, \f (Tuple a b) -> f a b)
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08:23 <quchen> In the tuple case this makes much more sense, since we would never talk about »the tuple« the way we would talk about »the nats«
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08:23 <quchen> So it’s harder to mistake »(,)« for »tuple«, compared to mistaking »0, succ« for »ℕ«
08:24 <`Guest03> i want to make a cool game in haskell.
08:24 <`Guest03> but i don't have ideas.
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08:25 <SexHendrix> `Guest03: mastermind
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08:25 <quchen> dmwit: So coming back to my original problem, which is explaining how succ+zero make ℕ to a very smart, but type-unfamiliar mathematician, I guess the postulate is »let zero be something and succ be an *injective* non-identity function from N to N« etc.
08:25 <SexHendrix> this one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Mastermind.jpg
08:25 <quchen> dmwit: I’m still not sure how to conclude that this forms exactly the natural numbers, but the injective part brings me a huge step further :-)
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08:26 <dmwit> observe that the nats are a fixed point
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08:26 <dmwit> then observe they must be a subset of any fixed point
08:28 <dmwit> (up to isomorphism everywhere)
08:28 <dmwit> or: what is your def. of "the nats"?
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08:29 <osa1> is there a shorthand of `if this prism matches run this monad action otherwise return ()` in lens?
08:29 <ski> implicit in dmwit's sentence is that `nat' is defined in the least restrictive way, in order to support `zero' and `succ'. since `succ(n) = zero' doesn't need to hold if `zero' is an element and `succ' and endo-function, that means it doesn't hold, with `nat' being inductively defined like this
08:29 <ski> quchen : injectiveness follows from this
08:29 <osa1> similar to `case x of C1 (C2 (C3 x y z))) -> f x y z; _ -> return ()`
08:29 <dmwit> osa1: traverse does that
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08:29 <dmwit> :t traverse_
08:29 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f ()
08:30 <quchen> ski: »least restrictive« seems rather informal though
08:30 <jle`> osa1: if you have to use a prism then i think `traverseOf_ p` would work
08:31 <osa1> so for the `t a` part I need the lens expression that returns `Maybe (x, y, z)` ?
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08:31 <dmwit> :t traverse_ :: Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> Maybe a -> f ()
08:31 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> Maybe a -> f ()
08:31 <osa1> OK
08:32 <osa1> thanks dmwit jle`
08:32 <ski> quchen : you can formalize it as the initial object in a specific category
08:32 <jle`> :t traverseOf_ _Just
08:32 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (b -> f r) -> Maybe b -> f ()
08:32 <jle`> :t traverseOf_ hex
08:32 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Integral a) => (a -> f r) -> String -> f ()
08:33 <dmwit> i'm going to hand off to ski and get some sleep. enjoy
08:34 <quchen> dmwit: Thanks a lot for your explanations!
08:34 <ski> quchen : in this case, the objects of the category are triples `(X,z,s)', with `X' being a set, `z : 1 >---> X' and `s : X >---> X'. and a morphism `m : (X_0,z_0,s_0) >---> (X_1,z_1,s_1)' is a function `m : X_0 >---> X_1' such that `m . z_0 = z_1' and `m . s_0 = s_1 . m'
08:35 <quchen> dmwit: The obvious »constructors are injective« is invaluable for my understanding
08:35 <quchen> Not that I didn’t know that, but I didn’t *know* it ;-)
08:35 <ski> .. if you prefer, you could take `X' as being an object in an arbitrary "base" category `C', and then `m : X_0 >---> X_1' is a morphism in that category `C'
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08:36 <ski> in the former case, the initial object in this new category is `(|N,zero,succ)', the natural numbers. the initiality of this object gives you fold (catamorphism)
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08:36 <quchen> Categories unfortunately make things much less clear for me, usually. :-(
08:36 <ski> in the latter case, you call it "a natural numbers object in `C'"
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08:39 <ski> quchen : anyway, apart from "constructors are injective", you also get "constructors are disjoint", and also that if you build a function `\x -> ..x..', `..x..' being an expression built by using `x' and the constructors, then this function is the identity only if the expression is `x' itself
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08:39 <ski> the latter means there is no `n' with `n = succ(n)', e.g.
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08:40 <quchen> I see, so you get a lot of mileage out of that definition then.
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08:41 <quchen> But leaving away the higher math, one could say that constructors are injective, not the identity, and disjoint.
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08:42 <quchen> The »has no fixed point« property is a speciality of the ℕ successor.
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08:42 <ski> in a more general setting, one'd have both constructors/generators, and given *equations*/relations/laws between them (cf. generating e.g. a group from a set of generators, and a set of "relations" between them)
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08:43 <ski> e.g. one could specify a category where objects are `(X,z,s,p)', with `X' a set, `z : 1 >---> X', `s : X >---> X' and `p : X >---> X', subject to `s . p = id' and `id = p . s'
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08:44 <ski> the initial object here would be the integers
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08:44 <ski> (so in this case the "constructors" are not disjoint, due to the presence of the laws)
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08:45 <quchen> Not disjoint in the sense that 0 is possibly both a »s« and a »p«?
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08:46 <ski> yes
08:46 <`Guest03> how to define infinite graphs?
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08:47 <jle`> it depends on your graph type
08:47 <`Guest03> uh
08:47 <`Guest03> just graph?
08:47 <`Guest03> undirected
08:47 <ski> quchen : this latter would be an example of an archic algebra (iow having, or being subject to, laws). the former (the peano natural numbers) being an anarchic algebra (no laws)
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08:48 <ski> any object of the category in question would be an algebra. the initial object is the "initial algebra", the naturals in one case, the integers in the other
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08:49 <jle`> `Guest03: usually the type will provide some way in its API
08:49 <jle`> i mean, the data type that implements your graphs
08:49 <jle`> or are you talking about it mathematically?
08:49 <quchen> ski: The »initial« gives you what dmwit called the »smallest« then?
08:49 <`Guest03> yes, mathematically
08:49 <ski> yes
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08:50 <jle`> `Guest03: an infinite graph is defined as a graph that is not finite
08:50 <ski> if you want to specify monoids, then objects are `(X,n,m)' with `X' a set, `n : 1 >---> X' and `m : X * X >---> X', subject to `forall y. m(n(),y) = y', `forall x. x = m(x,n())', and `forall x,y,z. m(m(x,y),z) = m(x,m(y,z))'
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08:50 <`Guest03> how to define graph*s*
08:51 <Cale> `Guest03: Perhaps by an adjacency function?
08:51 <jle`> do you mean how to describe a specific graph?
08:51 <Cale> If you want to be able to define graphs on infinite sets, that might be the way to do it.
08:51 <Cale> It really depends on what operations you need on graphs
08:51 <ski> the initial monoid is here also the natural numbers, with `n() = 0', and `forall x,y. m(x,y) = x + y'
08:52 <Cale> Or wait, you just want a mathematical definition of graphs, not a Haskell one?
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08:53 <ski> to specify "monoids generated from a set `S'", you have objects `(X,n,m,i)', with `(X,n,m)' as above and `i : S >---> X'. `i' acts as an "inclusion" function from your set of generators `S' into `X'
08:53 <Cale> A (simple, undirected) graph consists of a set V of vertices, and a set E of unordered pairs of distinct elements of V, called edges.
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08:53 <`Guest03> sorry i don't inderstand your question Cale
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08:53 <`Guest03> but i probably need a haskell definition
08:54 <`Guest03> judging by this name..
08:54 <`Guest03> i need to be able to
08:54 <`Guest03> walk them
08:54 <`Guest03> and store / load info in current vertex
08:54 <ski> the initial object in this case is the type `[S]' of finite lists of inhabitants of `S'. `i' is here the singleton function : `forall s. i(s) = [s]', and obviously `n() = []' and `forall xs,ys. m(xs,ys) = xs ++ ys'
08:54 <Cale> Ah, well, as soon as you want to start writing algorithms, you care a lot more about exactly how the thing is given. Usually I find that something along the lines of Map Vertex (Set Vertex) is a good representation.
08:55 <ski> quchen : does this make any vague sense at all ?
08:55 <Cale> With variations on that to be able to label the vertices and edges.
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08:55 <Cale> You can independently store a labelling on vertices as a separate Map Vertex Label
08:56 <Cale> Sometimes if you're labelling the edges as well, it's better to use something like Map Vertex (Map Vertex Label)
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08:56 <`Guest03> jle`: yes
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08:57 <`Guest03> but not a specific graph
08:57 <`Guest03> just what are some ways
08:57 <Cale> Note that you'll need to be somewhat cautious if your graph is meant to be undirected here -- you can always encode an undirected graph as a directed one where every edge consists of two arcs going in opposite directions
08:57 <Cale> Another way is to encode it via a function which describes whether vertices are adjacent.
08:57 <quchen> ski: Yes, vaguely. :-)
08:58 <quchen> ski: I recognize most words :-þ
08:58 <Cale> i.e. Vertex -> Vertex -> Bool
08:58 <Cale> Or a function which tells you the set of neighbours of a given vertex
08:58 <Cale> Vertex -> Set Vertex
08:58 <quchen> ski: I just have difficulties working with initial objects and terminal ones because I’m not very used to them. But taking initial as smallest works well enough
08:59 <Cale> When I wrote http://hackage.haskell.org/package/astar, I went with that... it looks like Johannes went and changed it to use HashSet instead for some reason, I'm not sure how happy I am about that one :)
09:00 <Cale> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/astar-0.3.0.0/docs/Data-Graph-AStar.html
09:00 <ski> quchen : anyway, if we go back to the case of "natural number algebras", being objects `(X,z,s)', `X' a set, `z : 1 >---> X', `s : X >---> X', and with the stated requirement on morhphisms to "preserve" this "structure". then an example such object in this category is `(Bool,True,not)'. makes sense ?
09:00 <ski> well, `(Bool,\() -> True,not)' i really should say
09:01 <quchen> ski: Sooo the natural numbers are: 1. the type ℕ formed out of thin air; 2. the two injective, disjoint, non-identity functions Z : ℕ and S : ℕ → ℕ, and the elimination »elim : ∀ C. C -> (ℕ -> C -> C) -> ℕ -> C« with elim z f 0 = z; elim z f (S x) = f x (elim z f x)
09:02 <quchen> Showing the injection from this into the natural numbers as we know it seems easy enough, I wonder how to do the reverse.
09:02 <ski> quchen : the eliminator is given by the initiality
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09:03 <quchen> ski: That is, »yes, but part of what you said was redundant«?
09:03 <ski> the eliminator is the initial object morphism `elim z f : (ℕ,0,S) >---> (C,z,f)'
09:03 <mbrock> with lenses foo and bar, when I do "let x = foo . bar" that seems to overspecify x's type in a way that prevents me from doing both "x . baz" and "x . qux" when baz and qux have different target types...
09:04 <ski> quchen : .. rather, an alternate way to understand it, in terms of initial algebras
09:04 <mbrock> it's always confusing to me when introducing a let binding for a common expression messes with type inference
09:04 <`Guest03> i don't know whether my question is related to graph's underlying data structure
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09:05 <`Guest03> or to a "way of defining" for a particlar graph
09:05 <ski> mbrock : DMR ?
09:06 <mbrock> I do actually have the NoMonomorphismRestriction language feature on
09:06 schjetne joined
09:06 <`Guest03> initially it is about latter, but those two layers seem to be interwoven
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09:12 <quchen> Does anyone have an example of a non-type-inferrable definition without type classes? I vaguely remember a small example by Richard Eisenberg that looked similar to »f (x:xs) = x : zipWith f xs xs«.
09:12 <quchen> The crux was that polymorphic recursion is a problem.
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09:14 <ski> quchen : yeah, i was just thinking polymorphic recursion would probably be involved, then i saw you said that :)
09:15 <quchen> It also involved zip(With). :-)
09:15 <quchen> The polymorphic recursion was a ---> [a]
09:15 <quchen> That’s all I remember :-(
09:15 <quchen> And it was a short definition.
09:16 <ski> > let length [] = 0; length (_:xs) = 1 + length (map (:[]) xs) in length "abc" -- how about this one ?
09:16 <lambdabot> error:
09:16 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
09:16 <lambdabot> Expected type: [[a]] -> t1
09:16 <ski> > let length :: [a] -> Int; length [] = 0; length (_:xs) = 1 + length (map (:[]) xs) in length "abc"
09:16 <lambdabot> 3
09:16 <ski> works with a type signature
09:16 <quchen> Good one!
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09:22 <Unhammer> Can I put the path to my system ghc in stack.yaml somewhere? (so I can e.g. install both 7.8.4 and 7.10.3 from ppa's instead of compiling for each computer …)
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09:25 <SexHendrix> hm, how come the lambdabot in here supports multiline stuff with semicolons but mine doesn't
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09:27 <Unhammer> mine = your bot or your ghci?
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09:27 <SexHendrix> nvm missed the `in`
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09:31 <`Guest03> ski: why can't a compiler infer the type?
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09:34 <ski> `Guest03 : the type of the recursive use of `length' isn't the same as the type of the current call to `length'
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11:09 <nshepperd_> Huh. I suppose translating polymorphic recursion to an application of fix doesn't work there, because it would be impredicative?
11:10 <nshepperd_> Like you need a specialised rank 2 fix
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12:17 <muzzle> is it possible to use the GHC-tokenizer as a library?
12:17 <muzzle> I want to tokenize haskell code at runtime in my program
12:17 <muzzle> and I would really like to use a given haskell tokenizer
12:17 systadmin joined
12:17 <muzzle> and possibly other parsing steps
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12:21 <lyxia> muzzle: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/ghc-8.0.1/Lexer.html ?
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12:24 <tfc> hey there, i am currently implementing a parseJson function using aeson library to parse from json to my own types. i have type "Foo A String String", and my parser looks like parseJson (Object o) = Foo <$> o .: "key1" <*> o .: "key2", which works great. Now i switched from Foo String String to Foo A String. For type A, i have a Parsec parser function of type Parser A. but i can't fiddle out how to combine THAT now. can anyone help me
12:24 <tfc> ?
12:24 <tfc> sorry first type was "Foo String String", then the upgrade is "Foo A String"
12:26 <Rembane> tfc: What's the type signature of your parser?
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12:26 <tfc> parse_func :: Parser A
12:26 <muzzle> lyxia thx, I failed at google...
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12:27 <tfc> Rembane i can already write "parse parse_func "" "some input string which can be parsed to an A instance"
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12:27 <tfc> in my json the object at "key1" is a string which i need to parse into an A
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12:28 <Rembane> tfc: What happens if you replace this `o .: "key1"` with: `(o .: "key1" >>= parse_func)`
12:28 <tfc> one moment
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12:29 <tfc> couldnt match "Text.Parsec.Prin.ParsecT String () Data.Functor.Identity.Identity A" with "a0 -> Parser a"
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12:30 <tfc> so aeson wants a "a -> Parser A" and i only have "Parser A" (but a parsec parser)
12:30 <novakboskov> Somewhere I've read a good point which been said like "Haskell basically have two languages, one _____ which is before :: sing and type language which is after :: sign...". Is there name for that first language, that one which remains when type language is separated?
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12:31 <hpc> the right word for what you're thinking of is "levels"
12:31 <hpc> the type level and the value level
12:31 <hpc> above the type level is the kind level
12:33 <hpc> the TypeInType language extension makes it so kinds are the top level
12:33 <hpc> values :: types, types :: kinds
12:33 <hpc> and with TypeInType, * :: *
12:34 <hpc> otherwise there is a simple "sort" system above kinds that never shows up in code
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12:36 <tfc> Rembane maybe you have an idea how i can use "String -> Either ErrStr A" in aeson to get an A or fail?
12:37 <Rembane> tfc: Supply a string to that function and pattern match on the result?
12:38 <tfc> yes but if i do a "case foo of Left _ -> fail "blabla" Right aInstance -> return aInstance" it's still a type error
12:38 <Rembane> tfc: What types does it want?
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12:39 <tfc> Rembane sheesh... i somehow got it working now. not sure what i made different from before. let me test it... will report back
12:40 <Rembane> tfc: More brackets? :D
12:40 <Rembane> tfc: Good luck!
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12:41 <tfc> ok, it actually works... so i have Foo <$> o .: "key1" <*> o .: "key2" again, and then instance FromJSON A where parseJson (String s) = case parse aParser "" (unpack s) of Left _ -> fail "blabla" Right m -> return m
12:41 <tfc> and that does the job. although it looks pretty clunky to me with the unpack etc.
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12:42 <Rembane> It is indeed, it's the curse of having a gazillion string types.
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12:43 <tfc> Rembane: too bad. all the string types are really a curse. it's all in all less a curse than programming in other languages.
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12:45 <tfc> Rembane: thx for your help!
12:45 <Rembane> tfc: Indeed.
12:45 <Rembane> tfc: No worries! :D
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12:45 <tfc> Rembane alone for the parsing i love haskell. :D
12:46 <Rembane> tfc: It's really nice! So powerful, so succinct.
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12:54 <Wizek> if I'd like to specify a local package as a dependency for a cabalized project, in theory all I need to do is `cabal sandbox add-source /local/path/to/package/`, right?
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12:56 <erisco> "string" is vague and that is why you see various implementations of it
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12:58 <dminuoso> erisco: Mind my asking since I was curious about this, what is vague about it?
12:59 <erisco> tell me what it is
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13:05 <maybefbi> will anyone share their haskell development salary with me? you can /msg me if you dont want it to be public
13:06 <erisco> mine is $0
13:06 <maybefbi> mine too
13:06 xall joined
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13:07 <erisco> I am looking for fix succ dollars
13:08 <robertkennedy> I work in data analytics and use Haskell to get my work done, bit I'm not a dev. Making 60k in Boise Idaho USA
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13:09 <nilof> Out of curiosity, is it common practice to not include the prelude and use a different standard library?
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13:10 <dminuoso> erisco: I would say it's just a list
13:11 <erisco> I don't think so, but it can be selectively imported when it is in the way, such as if you want (.) from Control.Category instead
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13:11 <erisco> dminuoso, a list of characters? what is a character? and then does Text and ByteString not qualify because they are not lists?
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13:36 <novakboskov> Is there any counterpart of fields reuse (through class inheritance in OOP) here in haskell?
13:37 <liste> novakboskov: https://github.com/adamgundry/ghc-proposals/blob/overloaded-record-fields/proposals/0000-overloaded-record-fields.rst
13:37 systadmin joined
13:38 <liste> novakboskov: also https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/master/users-guide/glasgow_exts.html#duplicate-record-fields
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13:40 <Cale> novakboskov: Ignoring the language extensions (which are somewhat questionable, imo), usually we just factor things to pull out common substructures into their own type.
13:41 mada joined
13:41 <Cale> novakboskov: If you have a bunch of types which are related by having similar fields, it's quite probable that you really want a type for the fields that they have in common instead.
13:42 dsh joined
13:42 <novakboskov> liste: Thanks for directions.
13:43 <novakboskov> Cale: It makes sense too ... :D
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13:44 <Cale> If you know about lenses, it's also possible to define a type class which defines one or more lenses for accessing common fields, and there's some template haskell machinery for doing that included with the lens package if you want to go that way.
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13:45 <Cale> I've not often found it necessary to go quite that far
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13:46 <Cale> But some kind of type class might be in order -- you might not just have it give you a lens, but instead, operations that are more specific to your application.
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14:20 <Athas> What's the simplest way to do a parallel map?
14:20 <Athas> (Over a list.)
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14:21 <c_wraith> parallel or concurrent?
14:21 <Athas> Parallel. Pure code.
14:22 <c_wraith> list isn't a great structure for that, but sometimes it works
14:22 <Athas> Something from Control.Parallel.Strategies, maybe...
14:22 <arun_t> please let me know how haskell embrace immutability?
14:22 <c_wraith> yeah, it has combinators for lists
14:22 <Athas> These lists will typically be quite short, so it should be OK.
14:22 robkennedy joined
14:23 <c_wraith> there's parList and parListChunk
14:23 <quchen> arun_t: All variables are constant.
14:23 <c_wraith> or parMap
14:23 <c_wraith> err, *and* parMap
14:23 <arun_t> quchen: what about data structures?
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14:24 <quchen> Variables whose values are data structures are just as constant.
14:24 <quchen> You can do things that do mutable updates in memory if that’s what you’re getting at. But it’s rarely necessary.
14:24 <Athas> c_wraith: so 'evalList rpar' would be a good strategy to apply to my list?
14:24 <arun_t> so mutation is not even possible
14:25 <Athas> Or... 'parList rseq'? What's the difference?
14:25 <quchen> The compiler mutates lots of things, but that’s not visible on in the code :-)
14:25 <quchen> s/on//
14:25 <tabaqui1> can I combine function in one infix function?
14:25 <tabaqui1> alike
14:25 <c_wraith> Athas: maybe just parMap rseq
14:26 <tabaqui1> a `pure (&&)` b
14:26 <Athas> c_wraith: yes, that looks the simplest.
14:26 <c_wraith> Athas: there are a lot of equivalent options. It's just a matter of what conceptual building blocks you want to use. :)
14:26 <bodisiw> quchen, are those impure operations, or ffi kinda things?
14:27 <tabaqui1> *a <*> `pure (&&)` <*> b
14:27 <tabaqui1> argh
14:27 <tabaqui1> dunno
14:27 <tabaqui1> wrong too
14:27 <arun_t> quchen : what do you mean by this line variables whose values are data structures are just as constant Please explain?
14:27 <tabaqui1> nevermind
14:27 <Athas> c_wraith: yes, I see. Are these things frequently used in practice?
14:28 <quchen> arun_t: x = [1,2,3] -- A list is a data structure, and x is immutable.
14:28 <ongy> c_wraith: what's better suited for parallel evaluation than lists?
14:28 <quchen> We can’t change the 1 there. We can make a new list that has a different first element though.
14:28 <Wizek> Has anyone of you encountered an error like this before? /usr/bin/ar: .stack-work/dist/x86_64-linux/Cabal-1.24.0.0/build/Spec.o: No such file or directory
14:28 baldrick1 joined
14:28 <merijn> ongy: arrays and vectors :p
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14:28 <quchen> bodisiw: The compiler can mutate whatever it wants, as long as this preserves the semantics of Haskell :-)
14:29 <quchen> bodisiw: Most importantly, when you evaluate a thunk, its result is often written over the memory location of the former thunk
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14:29 <bodisiw> right, i meant if you explicitly want to peek/poke (or whatever), that would have to be through IO monad?
14:29 <quchen> That’s a real mutable update in your RAM (or cache or whatever)
14:29 <merijn> bodisiw: There is a crucial distinction between "what the compiler/compiled code *does*" and "what we can observe it to do" :)
14:29 <bodisiw> i might be way off base... i am still real new
14:29 <c_wraith> Athas: occasionally, but the wins often are small, so they're usually very limited in scope
14:29 <arun_t> quchen: so how we can solve problems in haskell which needs mutable states in program
14:30 <merijn> arun_t: Haskell supports mutable state in a bunch of different ways
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14:30 <quchen> arun_t: Many problems don’t need mutable state :-) And for when you *really* need mutable state, you can go back to using IO or ST.
14:30 <Athas> c_wraith: do you know of any "production" Haskell programs (or libraries) that do?
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14:30 <quchen> Preferrable ST.
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14:30 <merijn> arun_t: IO based operations, STM, the ST monad, etc.
14:30 <c_wraith> ongy: lists are a completely serial data structure - evaluating them in parallel only makes sense if most of the calculation goes into figuring out the element at each location, and there aren't dependencies between the elements.
14:30 <Athas> I had trouble finding real users of things like Repa or Accelerate, but this looks more accessible, maybe.
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14:31 <merijn> Yeah, accelerate is like most high-level GPU tools in that people who want GPU performance don't use it
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14:32 <c_wraith> Athas: monad-par might be used more - it's a bit simpler conceptually than Strategies, though it requires bigger code changes to use
14:32 <merijn> And people who don't need GPU performance don't have a use for using accelerate that much :p
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14:32 <arun_t> merijn: why i need IO based operation to handle the mutable state in simple program, & i don't anything about monads?
14:32 <Athas> merijn: not a lot of HPC people using Haskell; agreed!
14:32 <merijn> I would've loved using Haskell bindings for CUDA, but the existing ones aren't what I'd like
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14:33 <Athas> What would you like?
14:33 <arun_t> merijn: quchen: I'm confuse about choosing b/w a lisp or haskell? to learn
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14:33 <merijn> Athas: Higher level control flow descriptions and data marshalling
14:34 <Athas> arun_t: pick Haskell. I used to be a (Common) Lisp programmer for many years. It's a great language. I switched to Haskell because Lisp is at the top of its power curve. You can't really add anything without first taking something away. On the other hand, Haskell still grows.
14:34 <merijn> arun_t: I'd say pick Haskell, because it's more different. I daresay that looking at lisp after haskell will be very easy
14:34 <c_wraith> ongy: most lists in Haskell end up being either super-simple so that the overhead of parallel evaluation isn't worth it, or there are evaluation dependencies between consecutive elements so they can't usefully be evaluated in parallel
14:34 <Athas> merijn: do you get that in C++ CUDA?
14:34 <merijn> arun_t: So if you've skipped list you're not losing much
14:34 <merijn> Athas: No, but then I don't have to worry about bindings and potential overhead in the FFI fucking up my benchmarks
14:34 <quchen> arun_t: Haskell is the better functional language (with its focus on purity, encapsulating effects, equational reasoning). Lisp’s strength is its macro system and that code and data share the same domain, allowing pretty interesting solutions to problems.
14:35 <bodisiw> hopefully this is an easy beginner question... i've got an Either String DynamicImage in ghci... what's needed in between to pass it to a (DynamicImage -> Image PixelRGBA8) ?
14:35 <merijn> arun_t: IO prevents the mutability leaking into other operations. As for the monad part, it's not really relevant here, since IO would work the same if monads had never been discovered :)
14:35 <merijn> bodisiw: You probably want fmap?
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14:36 <bodisiw> ahh, thanks
14:36 <merijn> bodisiw: What do you expect to happen if you get a String instead of an image? That's presumably an error
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14:37 <bodisiw> merijn, i believe that's correct... since i'm working on ghci, i'd like to ignore it. but really i'm just trying to understand... in a program, i _must_ handle both sides
14:37 <ongy> c_wraith: I don't see how the datatype would influence most of that. Provided the spine of the list is easy to compute and the content is the complex stuff
14:37 <bodisiw> to satisfy the semantics? like, that's the whole point of it being defined that way?
14:38 <merijn> bodisiw: Yes
14:38 <sshine> I've got a datatype Foo = Alice | Bob, and I'd like for Show Foo to only show the first letter, so deriving Show does too much. is there any neat way to derive a Show that's based off the default derive?
14:38 <Cale> sshine: I wouldn't use show for that...
14:38 <merijn> bodisiw: But you can just pattern match "case myResult of Left _ -> putStrLn "Error!"; Right img -> processImage img"
14:38 <merijn> bodisiw: I mean, 'fmap' is basically doing the same
14:39 <sshine> Cale, I have actually got a little PP type class for it, but can I still derive?
14:39 <Cale> sshine: It's usually most convenient for show to produce valid source code for reconstructing values, whenever possible
14:39 <sshine> Cale, right!
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14:39 <sshine> Cale, it's just that while I'm testing, I'm chaining my PP to Show :)
14:39 <arun_t> quchen: what is equational reasoning in haskell? merijn: can you explain more about IO use case and monad use case for mutable state?
14:39 <bodisiw> nice -- i think i need to understand the sugar and unsugar way... finding it kind of tough to learn both at once
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14:39 <Cale> Well, you can derive show, and then write your pretty printing function to use the first letter that show gave.
14:39 <sshine> hmm, I'll stick with that.
14:40 <merijn> bodisiw: What do you mean by sugar? fmap isn't sugar, it's just a function
14:40 <bodisiw> 'case...of' ?
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14:40 <c_wraith> ongy: well, compare that to a binary tree. Even if the children are hard to compute and the elements are easy, it parallelizes easily. It's just far more difficult to get data dependencies that mess up parallel evaluation. (spark floods are a different and more likely issue, though, which require some care in a different way)
14:40 <merijn> bodisiw: case of is just pattern matching, it's the exact opposite of syntactic sugar :)
14:41 <bodisiw> dang! one day i will get this all straight :-)
14:41 <merijn> bodisiw: Like, if there's anything in Haskell that is not sugar, but direct mechanical behaviour it's case-of :p
14:41 <c_wraith> in Haskell, if/then/else is syntactic suger. :)
14:41 <merijn> bodisiw: You're familiar with pattern matching while writing functions, right?
14:42 <merijn> bodisiw: The compiler just translates those into case-of expressions
14:42 <bodisiw> i've read about guards and such, but cant write them intuitively yet
14:42 <Cale> Yeah, one can imagine that at some level, the only reason that anything is ever evaluated is because it is the scrutinee of a case expression which needs to know which constructor matches.
14:43 <Cale> (and everything else that does pattern matching or causes evaluation is syntax sugar for case expressions)
14:44 <bodisiw> i love this aspect of haskell
14:44 <bodisiw> though obviously still struggling with it
14:44 <Cale> There is in reality at least one exception to that, because when you have something like seq f y where f is of function type, then you can't cause the function to similarly be evaluated using case
14:45 <Athas> A lot of people were upset in the 90s because of that!
14:45 <Cale> (seq is primitive and ensures that its first argument is evaluated before resulting in its second argument)
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14:45 <bodisiw> Athas, i admit i usually code for the 'happy path'... because i am lazy
14:45 <Cale> Yeah, it screws up the denotational semantics a bunch
14:46 <bodisiw> but haskell and i can't both be lazy ;-)
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14:46 <Athas> bodisiw: well, that's fine. I think good language (and program) design requires compromises for practical reasons.
14:46 <Athas> Haskell only compromises in a very few places. Look at OCaml for a language that perhaps compromises a bit too much.
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14:48 <quchen> arun_t: Equational reasoning is what you do in math a lot: insert definitions to simplify things. For example, if you know that f(x)=2*x, then f(4) can be shown to be equal to 2*4. It’s a trivial example, but equational reasoning goes a *long* way. For example, »map id list = list« allows you to drop a loop from your program.
14:48 <quchen> Equational reasoning allows us to do pretty complex program transformation in our heads, and the compiler catches most errors humans make :-)
14:49 dan_f joined
14:49 <quchen> Aaaand he’s gone
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15:01 <dredozubov> does -O2 work for libraries nowadays?
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15:01 <dredozubov> I always thought it doesn't, but i saw some conflicting opinions on the internet. :)
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15:02 <Cale> dredozubov: I'm unaware of any point in time at which it didn't.
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15:03 <shapr> Is there a collection of documents about structuring libraries/programs?
15:03 <c_wraith> cabal/hackage warn against -O2, but it's always worked.
15:04 <c_wraith> They just are suggesting that for most libraries, -O2 doesn't help much but significantly increases install time
15:04 <c_wraith> Of course, the cases where it does help the most are the same ones it increases install time the most...
15:05 <c_wraith> *cough* vector-algorithms *cough*
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15:06 <dredozubov> basically i have a multi-package repo that i usually build with stack/nix
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15:07 <dredozubov> nix have an override to build with -O2 for production builds
15:07 <dredozubov> but i'm wondering if i should set it in ghc-options in .cabal files
15:07 <bennofs> dredozubov: i don't think you should set it in .cabal files
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15:08 <dredozubov> any explicit pro/cons?
15:09 <dredozubov> defaulting .cabal to -O0 sounds reasonable for all kinds of development feedback loops
15:09 <bennofs> dredozubov: it's might be hard to override if it's set in ghc-options
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15:10 <dredozubov> how is that different from omitting it? It defaults to -O afaik.
15:10 <merijn> dredozubov: You can do even better for development feedback loops
15:11 <merijn> You can incidentally locally override what cabal does
15:11 <merijn> If you change your .cabal/config you can have it build everything with -O2
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15:13 <dredozubov> that doesn't sounds particularly good for development :)
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15:14 <merijn> dredozubov: No, the one that speeds up development is '-fno-code'
15:14 <merijn> That just does typechecking, no code generation
15:14 <merijn> It's superfast combined with -O0
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15:15 <dredozubov> i need to try that
15:15 <dredozubov> i'm not super happy with intero
15:15 <dredozubov> so i'm looking for a way to make typecheck-report faster in some other way
15:16 <merijn> dredozubov: I have ghc-mod setup to always use '-O0 -fno-code' for that reason
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15:16 <dredozubov> launching stack on every check is not really fast
15:16 <dredozubov> i was wondering if i should hook flycheck to 'stack build --file-watch'
15:16 <dredozubov> but it requires writing some cringe-worthy elisp
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15:17 <dredozubov> merijn: good tip!
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15:20 <ertes> dredozubov: why do you even compile? i just use GHCi during development (or rather my emacs + haskell-interactive-mode does)
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15:22 <dredozubov> haskell-interactive-mode doesn't work with multi-package repos
15:22 <dredozubov> so it's out of the question for me
15:22 <ertes> dredozubov: "work"?
15:22 <dredozubov> intero doesn't seem too stable with my setup either
15:22 <ertes> dredozubov: or rather: what is a "multi-package repo"?
15:23 <dredozubov> and i use compilation-mode to find the next error that usually occurs in some arbitrary module
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15:23 <dredozubov> ertes: a lot of cabal-packages depending on each other
15:23 <ertes> h-i-m does the same without compilation… it even reuses next-error
15:24 <dredozubov> > "work"?
15:24 <dredozubov> it's a work project if that's what you're asking
15:24 <ertes> dredozubov: that's a weird thing to say, considering that i do have those locally
15:24 <ertes> but i don't know much about stack… in my setup nix handles those dependencies quite transparently
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15:28 <dredozubov> i have ~20 packages in one repo
15:28 <dredozubov> i remember doing cabal yadda-yadda add-source
15:28 <dredozubov> and it felt like pure madness
15:28 <dredozubov> so i switched to stack and never looked back
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15:30 <ertes> dredozubov: the workflow is: C-c C-l, then h-i-m will first check whether the cabal file has changed and restart my nix-ghci wrapper script if necessary (it just wraps GHCi in nix-shell), then reloads the module… after that i use next-error to cycle errors
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15:30 <ertes> dredozubov: i don't have any of that… i just have a nix expression that specifies my local packages globally
15:31 <ertes> it's in ~/.nixpkgs/config.nix
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15:31 <dredozubov> can you share a gist of it?
15:31 <dredozubov> i'm interested how that works
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15:35 <ertes> dredozubov: here is the config.nix: https://github.com/esoeylemez/config/blob/master/files/.nixpkgs/config.nix
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15:36 <ertes> this one specifies local overrides for packages… in your case you would have to do without asGit, because it assumes that each git repo is a package
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15:37 <ertes> this is my wrapper script (h-i-m fires up this one instead of "ghci"): https://github.com/esoeylemez/config/blob/master/bin/nix-ghci
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15:37 <dredozubov> i have to run now, but i'll definitely look at it later, thanks!
15:37 <ertes> hopefully h-i-m will get first-class support for nix some day, so it will no longer be needed
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15:54 <kubunto> i am trying to fix my code that is supposed to replace a char in a string
15:54 <kubunto> http://lpaste.net/353344
15:54 <kubunto> not sure why it isnt working
15:54 <merijn> kubunto: What does "ghc -> nothing" mean?
15:54 <kubunto> expected output is what i see in the ghci readout
15:54 <kubunto> merijn: litterally gives no string
15:55 <merijn> kubunto: What does the file you give to ghc look like?
15:55 <c_wraith> kubunto, that foldr is just concat
15:56 <kubunto> c_wraith: it is a string replacement function
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15:56 <c_wraith> kubunto, the fmap is supposed to be. the foldr is just a concat
15:56 <kubunto> ok, function was not invoked
15:57 <ocharles> Ok, I am having a serious wtf experience with GHC atm - can any one shed any light on this? https://gist.github.com/ocharles/c028fa7c3f7c8242904a2beb33420eba
15:57 <merijn> ocharles: What part of "this" needs light?
15:58 <ocharles> See lines 22 , 30 and 31
15:58 <ocharles> I don't understand why abstracting `expressions (traverse f)` into `foo` causes a <<loop>>
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15:59 <ocharles> Though the abstracting is fine if I introduce one more class (line 22)
15:59 <c_wraith> ocharles, usually that means you're accidentally shadowing something
15:59 <ocharles> there are some weird type class contexts, so I've tried to provide as much of those classes as I can
15:59 <ocharles> usually, but I'm not here
15:59 <Athas> c_wraith: parMap is working like a charm for me. It's rare that I get good Haskell parallelism experiences, but this is looking like one.
15:59 <ocharles> at least, as much as I can tell
15:59 ludat joined
16:00 owiecc joined
16:00 <kubunto> ok, seems like i have scoping issue
16:00 someone_ joined
16:01 <ocharles> I mean I have expressions = baseTableExprs, and baseTableExprs just calls gexpressions, and gexpressions just calls itself (or terminates). Using GHCI with -fbreak-on-exception and :trace doesn't really shed any light
16:01 coltfred joined
16:01 <kubunto> so why would c not be passed into the case function in this fragment: http://lpaste.net/353345
16:02 <ocharles> If I hit Ctrl-c and use :list, I'm apparently stuck at https://gist.github.com/ocharles/c028fa7c3f7c8242904a2beb33420eba#file-wat-hs-L100
16:02 <c_wraith> kubunto, you're not matching on the string "c"
16:02 <merijn> kubunto: Case only matches on patterns
16:02 fendor joined
16:02 <merijn> kubunto: You're just introducing a new variable 'c' and not using it
16:03 <ocharles> I've commented with :history on that gist now too
16:03 <ocharles> I'll try and get something standalone reproducible
16:03 <kubunto> how would i do what i want then
16:03 <c_wraith> use ==
16:03 <kubunto> namely pass in char c to the case match
16:03 <merijn> kubunto: Use "x == c"
16:03 janos__ joined
16:04 <c_wraith> ocharles, well.. have you tried putting an exact type annotation on foo?
16:04 codesoup joined
16:05 <kubunto> c_wraith: merijn getting parse errors
16:05 <ocharles> Yep, it doesn't help. I put on foo :: (Table expr haskell, Applicative f) => (Some Expr -> f (Some Expr)) -> expr -> f expr which is the most general type I want
16:06 <c_wraith> ocharles, how about without type variables? I'm trying to control the instance selection exactly.
16:06 <ocharles> c_wraith: if I use foo :: (Some Expr -> IO (Some Expr)) -> Small Expr -> IO (Small Expr) then it does work
16:06 mattyw joined
16:07 <ocharles> Likewise foo :: Applicative f => (Some Expr -> f (Some Expr)) -> Small Expr -> f (Small Expr)
16:07 <c_wraith> ocharles, then it's definitely related to instance selection somehow. I bet there are incoherent instances involved.
16:07 <ocharles> I'll paste the extensions I'm using in the module that defines those clasess
16:07 <c_wraith> well, hmm. overlapping would suffice
16:08 <ocharles> https://gist.github.com/ocharles/f1c707302f85cf386727849a1f60d4b1
16:08 <ocharles> and yea, there's the {-# OVERLAPPING #-} instance
16:08 yyyyy joined
16:08 Kreest__ joined
16:08 <c_wraith> overlapping instances don't really play nicely with inference
16:09 <kubunto> c_wraith: merijn how do i add in ==
16:09 <c_wraith> kubunto, replace the case with an if
16:09 <ocharles> that overlapping instance gets selected with polymorphic types - if I put `expressions = undefined`, then it crashes in both cases
16:11 <c_wraith> kubunto, like... if c == [x] then " " else [x]
16:11 <c_wraith> kubunto, or something like that, but actually what you're trying to do
16:11 Glooomy joined
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16:13 <c_wraith> ocharles, I can't really suggest much. this is just the downside of overlapping instances. instance resolution becomes really hard to understand.
16:13 <ocharles> ok, I think I've found the problem...
16:13 <ocharles> {-# OVERLAPS #-} might the pragma I really wanted
16:13 <kubunto> c_wraith: tyvm
16:13 <ocharles> rather than {-# OVERLAPPABLE #-}
16:13 gabe4k joined
16:14 <c_wraith> Oh. yes, those are very different
16:14 <ocharles> ah, no
16:14 <ocharles> I had another line commented out still. Still loops with OVERLAPS
16:14 pasukon joined
16:14 jbiesnecker joined
16:14 osa1 joined
16:14 osa1 joined
16:14 <ocharles> (and OVERLAPPING)
16:14 <ocharles> Urgh
16:14 <ocharles> Maybe I'll just kill this stupid instance and make people write two instances
16:14 nwf joined
16:14 <ocharles> all the methods are generic anyway
16:15 <c_wraith> if you can avoid overlapping, it's worth it.
16:15 `Guest03 joined
16:15 <ocharles> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html?highlight=overlapping#ghc-flag--XOverlappingInstances I guess the WARNING here is what I'm hitting
16:15 Bish joined
16:16 <tfc> hey there. i have a function a -> IO Bool
16:16 <tfc> and i basically want to filterM (not . f) list
16:16 <tfc> while f is a -> IO Bool
16:16 cschneid_ joined
16:17 dgonzo joined
16:17 <tfc> of course not . f does not work in that context. but i am currently puzzled finding out how it can be done
16:17 <tfc> <$> and <*> won't work
16:17 <MarcelineVQ> :t fmap not
16:17 Gurkenglas_ joined
16:17 <lambdabot> Functor f => f Bool -> f Bool
16:17 hackebeilchen joined
16:18 <tfc> (fmap not f) then?
16:18 defaultnick_ joined
16:18 fotonzade joined
16:18 <MarcelineVQ> not quite, that's not <$> f
16:18 <tfc> ok, i see...
16:18 <MarcelineVQ> you want the composition to happen still
16:18 <c_wraith> fmap not . f
16:18 <tfc> yes
16:18 ramzifu joined
16:19 <tfc> wow that works, thank you!
16:19 gienah joined
16:19 jbiesnecker joined
16:20 zaesur joined
16:20 <kubunto> is char a legal variable name?
16:20 Geoi joined
16:21 <kubunto> nvm
16:21 jbiesnecker joined
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16:22 FjordPrefect joined
16:23 <tfc> MarcelineVQ: ok, i have working what i need. but i do not understand the syntax of "fmap not . testMachine". i do not find a pair of braces i can put there to understand how this works.
16:23 boombanana joined
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16:25 <tfc> MarcelineVQ: if :t fmap is Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b, then i do not see how the "not . f" fits in. while "not" alone can be the first parameter alone , which makes it all a f a -> f b function, i don't understand the next composition step. can you help me here?
16:26 igniting joined
16:26 <Tuplanolla> Expand the definition of `.`, tfc.
16:26 <MarcelineVQ> the definition for (.) is f . g = \x -> f (g x) so to plug in the values for your case it's something like \x -> fmap not (f x)
16:27 <tfc> oh, i see. the lambda version is more comprehensive to me. thank you.
16:27 <SexHendrix> @src (.)
16:27 <lambdabot> (f . g) x = f (g x)
16:27 coot joined
16:27 razzi53 joined
16:27 <tfc> i know the definition of ".'
16:28 <tfc> the problem is that i know what fmap does, and i know what "a . b" does, but while "not . (f :: a -> IO Bool)" does not work, and "fmap not f" also does not work, it's kind of complicated why "fmap not . f" works.
16:29 andrei_chifa joined
16:29 Bish joined
16:29 <MarcelineVQ> did the above clear that up for you now?
16:30 Rainb joined
16:30 dgonzo joined
16:31 <kubunto> how would i do a recursive list comp?
16:32 <tfc> MarcelineVQ: the \x -> fmap not (f x) looks clear to me. but i fail to see how that is identical to "fmap not . f"
16:32 <MarcelineVQ> it's worth mentioning the f's are different, I should have written: j . k = \x -> j (k x) ... \x -> fmap not (f x)
16:32 <MarcelineVQ> fmap not is j and f is k
16:33 defaultnick_ joined
16:33 <shapr> kubunto: [x | xs <- ["foo","bar"], x <- xs] ?
16:33 <tfc> aaah now i get it. (fmap not) . testMachine
16:33 <tfc> :)
16:33 raynold joined
16:33 <tfc> thank yo very much MarcelineVQ!
16:34 <MarcelineVQ> np, I should have been more clear
16:34 <kubunto> shapr: i want to be able to loop thru a list of punctuation marks and use them as arguments to a function i wrote
16:34 trism joined
16:34 <tfc> i am still quickly confused by missing parentheses
16:34 <shapr> kubunto: do you want to pass each mark to different functions? or what?
16:35 <c_wraith> tfc, function calls always bind more tightly than operators
16:35 <kubunto> shapr: one sec
16:35 <c_wraith> I suppose I should say "function application"
16:35 <tfc> c_wraith: yes, while i know this, i am used yet to always read it like that. hling keeps kicking me for adding too many parentheses
16:36 revtintin joined
16:36 <SexHendrix> kubunto: functionYouMade <$> listOfPunctuation
16:36 <shapr> yeah, fmap is the easy way
16:37 Copperis joined
16:37 <kubunto> SexHendrix: i have better idea
16:37 <kubunto> make my if a little more useful in the replacement function i wrote
16:37 Deide joined
16:37 dgonzo joined
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16:37 Lord_of_Life joined
16:37 <SexHendrix> @get-shapr
16:38 <lambdabot> shapr!!
16:38 <shapr> you screamt?
16:38 <SexHendrix> i knew id seen that name somewhere
16:38 <shapr> SexHendrix: that command hasn't seen much use the past five or so years
16:39 <SexHendrix> recently set up my own lambdabot, saw it was installed by default
16:39 <SexHendrix> no idea what it was till i saw your name just now
16:39 sepp2k joined
16:39 <SexHendrix> :)
16:39 <shapr> I used to host lambdabot and I started #haskell, so I was the single point of failure for a pile of years.
16:39 <shapr> thankfully that's no longer the case
16:40 <SexHendrix> its a nice bot
16:40 <shapr> SexHendrix: any thoughts on lambdabot ?
16:40 <shapr> There's a bug in the Quote module that's nearing fifteen years old, I really need to fix that.
16:41 <SexHendrix> yeah i haven't looked much into hacking it yet but feels more premium than supybot
16:41 <shapr> amusingly, supybot's @command syntax came from lambdabot
16:41 <Tuplanolla> I feel lambdabot's ux could do with a lot of work.
16:41 <shapr> I wasn't the original author of lambdabot, that would be Andrew Bromage, but I did write the plugin system and most of the early plugins.
16:42 <int-e> @quote bug
16:42 <lambdabot> Knuth says: The conventional wisdom shared by many of today's software engineers call for ignoring efficiency in the small; but I believe this is simply an overreaction to the abuses they see being
16:42 <lambdabot> practiced by pennywise-and-pound-foolish programmers, who can't debug or maintain their "optimized" programs.
16:42 <SexHendrix> still feels a lot more like a tool than a gen purpose bot
16:42 <SexHendrix> might write a duckhunt plugin
16:42 <Tuplanolla> If you define `x` for example, it should say "defined `Lambdabot.x`; already in scope: `SimpleReflect.x`, `Some.Other.x`".
16:43 <shapr> Yeah, people started plugging lambdabot into ghci at some point
16:43 <shapr> but most of those tools are now available in various plugins
16:43 <SexHendrix> deleting single definitions wouuld be nice
16:43 <shapr> though I'd still like to be able to do M-x pl-region
16:43 <SexHendrix> typos keep screwing me over
16:43 <shapr> Tuplanolla: fix it?
16:43 <SexHendrix> letlpaste is great though
16:43 <Tuplanolla> The `@let import` syntax is also impossible to figure out without seeing it in action first.
16:43 <SexHendrix> best feature
16:44 <shapr> One reason lambdabot got popular was that you got ops on lambdabot when you wrote a plugin :-)
16:44 michael1 joined
16:44 <Tuplanolla> Whoa, extra responsibilities for free.
16:44 <Rembane> Sneaky! :D
16:44 afarmer joined
16:44 <SexHendrix> people will do insane things for a slight increase in internet power
16:45 <shapr> yeah, imaginary internet points are coveted
16:45 conal joined
16:45 defaultnick_ joined
16:46 <SexHendrix> in it for the 1337 hostmasks
16:47 ner0x652 joined
16:47 felko joined
16:48 balor joined
16:48 <felko> Is there anyway of using a type-level Nat as a value in a computation ? I can't find anything online
16:48 sssilver joined
16:48 <ertes> felko: on the type level or value level?
16:48 mnislaih joined
16:49 conal joined
16:49 <cocreature> KnownNat allows you to get the value corresponding to a type-level nat
16:49 <glguy> felko: You can use the KnownNat class
16:49 <felko> ok i'll check it out thanks
16:49 <ertes> felko: for type-level computation you can use the type families like (+) from the GHC.TypeLits module
16:50 <felko> ertes: i meant using a type-level Nat in a value-level computation
16:50 <felko> Ok KnownNat seems to correspond to what I want, thanks a lot
16:52 <kubunto> ok i cant figure this out
16:52 <kubunto> i have a string of punctuation that i want to remove
16:53 <kubunto> function is http://lpaste.net/353349
16:54 <shapr> > filter (not . flip elem "'!") "I don't want punctuation!"
16:54 <lambdabot> "I dont want punctuation"
16:54 _sg joined
16:54 <glguy> kubunto: Do you know that this "\[x] -> ..."
16:54 <glguy> is matching single element lists?
16:54 <kubunto> glguy: no but it matches what i have observed
16:55 dgonzo joined
16:55 <cocreature> maybe start by adding a type signature :)
16:55 <ertes> kubunto: you should really write a type signature for both 'replace' and 'replacef'
16:55 balor joined
16:55 <glguy> In this context [x] is a pattern for a single element list where the single element is named x
16:55 cdg joined
16:56 jmelesky joined
16:56 <glguy> like the list: [1] or [True]. It's different from the type level where you have [Int] which means "a list of Ints"
16:57 dgonzo joined
16:57 danharaj joined
16:58 refold joined
16:59 <`Guest03> tfc: (not <$>) . f
16:59 JonReed joined
17:00 <tfc> `Guest03: nice, this works too. thx!
17:00 <shapr> tfc: lambdabot's @pl command is fun too
17:00 <shapr> @pl \x -> fmap not (f x)
17:00 <lambdabot> fmap not . f
17:00 <glguy> If we're obfuscating: (not <$>) <$> f
17:00 <SexHendrix> my favourite is
17:00 <SexHendrix> @protontorpedo
17:00 <lambdabot> so how do you use haskell tools to build large programs?
17:01 conal joined
17:01 <SexHendrix> or maybe
17:01 <SexHendrix> @ghc
17:01 <lambdabot> Info table already?
17:01 <shapr> SexHendrix: yeah, that user had a surprising amount of surreality
17:01 <ertes> to (<$>) or not to (<$>): (<$>) (not (<$>)) f
17:01 <SexHendrix> im in a channel where some other lads are running a markov plugin on the entire log history
17:02 <dolio> protontorpedo is kind of boring. keal is better.
17:02 <merijn> @keal
17:02 <SexHendrix> so i like to spam @ghc in there to poison all output with sassy ghc quips
17:02 <lambdabot> b*(Floor[v/b^p]/b-Floor[Floor[v/b^p]/b])
17:03 <ongy> :t b*(Floor[v/b^p]/b-Floor[Floor[v/b^p]/b])
17:03 <lambdabot> error:
17:03 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: Floor :: [Expr] -> Expr
17:03 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant variable ‘floor’ (imported from Prelude)
17:03 <ertes> :t \f -> (id <*> not) (<$>) f
17:03 <lambdabot> error:
17:03 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Bool’ with ‘a -> b’
17:03 <lambdabot> Expected type: ((a -> b) -> f a -> f b) -> f a -> f b
17:03 <kubunto> brb
17:04 <`Guest03> :t x
17:04 <lambdabot> Expr
17:04 hyuvkr joined
17:05 mthek joined
17:05 <`Guest03> > x + x
17:05 <lambdabot> x + x
17:05 <ertes> :t (id <*> not :: (forall f. (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b) -> [Bool] -> [Bool]) (<$>)
17:05 <lambdabot> error:
17:05 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘Bool -> [Bool] -> [Bool]’
17:05 <lambdabot> with ‘forall (f :: * -> *). Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b’
17:05 nwf joined
17:06 balor joined
17:07 <ertes> @src (<$$>)
17:07 <lambdabot> Source not found.
17:08 <ongy> :t (<$$>(
17:08 <ongy> :t (<$$>)
17:08 <lambdabot> error:
17:08 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:08 <lambdabot> error:
17:08 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: <$$>
17:08 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
17:08 <ertes> lambdabot is not in tsunderebot mode today?
17:08 <SexHendrix> :t <$$$>
17:08 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘<$$$>’
17:08 dgonzo joined
17:09 fresheyeball joined
17:09 <ongy> you have to put operators in parens for things like this. so <$> becomes (<$>) and so forth
17:09 refold joined
17:09 <ertes> where did i see (<$$>) = flip fmap? would be quite useful to have in Prelude
17:09 <ongy> same for import lists, so 'import Control.Applicative ((<$>))' is rather common for me
17:10 <ertes> :t (<**>) -- like this
17:10 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
17:10 Sonolin joined
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17:21 <MarcelineVQ> ertes: often I see it as <&> if that's useful
17:22 connrs joined
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17:24 jutaro joined
17:25 <`Guest03> (<&>) can also be of type f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
17:25 <nitrix> :t (<&>) -- from lens
17:25 <lambdabot> Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
17:26 Glooomy joined
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17:26 <kubunto> i am still lost on trying to get punctuation to be replaced with spaces
17:26 mnislaih joined
17:27 <ongy> kubunto: have you seen the version with filter that removes punctuation glguy posted earlier?
17:27 <kubunto> ongy: i dont want them removed
17:27 <kubunto> i want them replaced
17:27 <glguy> I don't think I posted one
17:28 wraithm joined
17:28 <ongy> oh I thought it was you.
17:28 <ongy> kubunto: you can easily modify that filter ot something that replaces:
17:28 <nitrix> map (\c -> if isPunctuation c then ' ' else c)
17:29 <ongy> > let fun x = x `notElem` "'!" in map (\c -> if fun c then ' ' else c) "I don't want punctuation!"
17:29 <lambdabot> " ' !"
17:29 <ongy> whoops wrong way around. But I will let this be your homework
17:30 <`Guest03> hmm
17:30 <nitrix> Data.Char.isPunctuation already provides you with the detection, you can spare writing you own version.
17:30 steeze joined
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17:32 <nitrix> In which case, it simply becomes:
17:32 <`Guest03> (\c -> fromEither $ guard (isPunctuation c) *> return c <|> return ' ')
17:32 dgonzo joined
17:32 <nitrix> > filter (not . isPunctuation) "Hello, World!"
17:32 <lambdabot> "Hello World"
17:33 <nitrix> Oh I'm doing the same mistake.
17:33 danharaj joined
17:33 <teto> any advice to a beginner for parsing CSV ?
17:33 <`Guest03> > concatMap (\c -> if (isPunctuation c) then " " else [c]) "1, 2, 3..."
17:33 <lambdabot> "1 2 3 "
17:34 <sm> teto: use one of the CSV libs on hackage ?
17:34 <kuribas> teto: cassava?
17:35 defaultnick__ joined
17:35 mtncoder joined
17:35 <teto> I hesitate between cassava and parsec ? any reason to choose one over the other ?
17:35 <sm> parsec doesn't come with a csv parser, you'd be writing it yourself
17:35 funkshun joined
17:36 Swizec joined
17:36 <sm> and that already exists (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/csv)
17:36 dgonzo joined
17:37 augur joined
17:37 <sm> which is old, but very simple
17:38 dgonzo joined
17:38 bjz joined
17:39 <teto> thanks
17:39 <JonReed> Hi, is there a way to provide default value to a lens. E.g., this `aList ^? ix 0` returns maybe and I want it to return simply `a`. I know I can `fromMaybe 42 $ aList ^? ix 0 `, but what is the lens way of doing it?
17:40 <Tuplanolla> Yes, `non`, JonReed.
17:40 uglyfigurine joined
17:41 <JonReed> Tuplanolla: Can you provide an example, please? I tried non before and I used it somehow in a wrong way
17:41 <Tuplanolla> See Microlens' documentation for several examples, JonReed.
17:41 <Tuplanolla> @hackage microlens
17:41 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/microlens
17:41 <kubunto> can i put type definitions inside a function?
17:41 <Tuplanolla> Yes, anywhere, kubunto.
17:42 <* sm> thinks not
17:42 <Tuplanolla> Wait, declarations or definitions?
17:42 <kubunto> for instance repl :: Char -> Char
17:42 <Tuplanolla> Then yes, anywhere.
17:42 alexknvl joined
17:44 Rodya_ joined
17:44 <nitrix> JonReed: You want Iso.
17:44 <nitrix> JonReed: non :: Eq a => a -> Iso a (Maybe a)
17:44 Swizec joined
17:44 <nitrix> aList ^? ix 0 . non 42
17:45 <nitrix> (If I remember the fixity right)
17:46 malc_ joined
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17:46 b4ff3r joined
17:47 <kubunto> damn
17:47 <kubunto> i have no idea what types my functions are
17:47 jmcarthur joined
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17:50 <ongy> you can compile with warnings enabled and ghc will tell you
17:50 schjetne joined
17:52 raichoo joined
17:53 <glguy> No, you can't mix ix and non like that
17:54 <glguy> (or you can, but it doesn't do what the question wants)
17:54 ertesx joined
17:55 sobaken joined
17:56 <glguy> fromMaybe is the lens way
17:57 <nitrix> Ah. Well you can keep using Ix then.
17:57 <nitrix> > Nothing ^. at () . non 69
17:57 <lambdabot> 69
17:58 <nitrix> > Just 42 ^. at () . non 69
17:58 <lambdabot> 42
17:58 <glguy> Right, non pairs better with at, and lists aren't an instance of At
17:59 coot joined
17:59 Ariakenom joined
17:59 <glguy> (> [0..3] ^?! (ix 10 <> like 42), [0..3] ^?! failing (ix 10) (like 42))
18:00 <glguy> > ([0..3] ^?! (ix 10 <> like 42), [0..3] ^?! failing (ix 10) (like 42))
18:00 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
18:00 <glguy> (42,42)
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18:01 <nitrix> JonReed: aList ^. at 0 . non 69 -- So basically change `ix` for `at` and you'll be able to use `non` nicely.
18:01 <glguy> and change aList to something that isn't a list
18:02 <kubunto> ongy: i had issues declaring types of lambda functions
18:02 <nitrix> glguy: Once you go lens, you never come back :P
18:03 <nitrix> glguy: (As in rabbit hole)
18:03 <glguy> There's a phase to go through to learn that lens isn't a framework that all your computation needs to be embedded in, but that requires figuring out what's actually in lens
18:04 pera_ joined
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18:04 <MarcelineVQ> I'm still in the phase of "what the hell am I looking at"
18:05 <ongy> wait, lens is more than "fancy extensions to records"?
18:06 AndreasK joined
18:06 <Tuplanolla> Lens is a lifestyle.
18:06 <kuribas> ongy: only that and the kitchen sink
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18:06 <glguy> very little of lens is about fancy extensions to records
18:07 <ongy> then I am at the point where I have no idea what lens is :)
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18:08 <kuribas> lens is a traverse generalized to any structure and part.
18:08 txcyuio joined
18:08 <kuribas> traverse on steroids
18:08 <tommd> It's a way to peg your CPU for longer during compilation. It's also about structure traversal or even monadic actions that are structure-specific (ex: state).
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18:10 <bennofs> tommd: i think the CPU pegging part is called "template haskell" :)
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18:37 <sdrodge> I still struggle a lot with knowing when to use lazy variants of various data structures/monads, and when its a good idea to add strictness annotations. Does anyone know of a good write up on this topic?
18:37 <sdrodge> (better than the wiki, that is)
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18:38 paolino joined
18:38 <sdrodge> Or is the approach in "real" Haskell programs to actually just write everything using one default or the other and then do profiling to fix it?
18:38 <sdrodge> Perhaps I'm overestimating the extent to which practitioners know the answer to this question.
18:39 mda1 joined
18:39 <sdrodge> Or perhaps I'm overestimating how often this impacts performance significantly.
18:42 beanbagu1 joined
18:42 <sdrodge> To make this more concrete: would any strictness annotations in this programming be an obviously good idea? https://hastebin.com/oweyizopax.hs
18:44 scinawa joined
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18:45 <sdrodge> *thi program
18:45 <sdrodge> *this program
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18:52 <Cale> sdrodge: I suspect using IM.insertWith' may improve things.
18:52 refold joined
18:52 <* Sonolin> shrugs
18:52 <Cale> sdrodge: When you use IM.insertWith (+) there, it won't actually calculate the sum, it just sticks the unevaluated expression into the map
18:52 <Sonolin> I always just use lazy, and when I come into problems or issues then look at strict variants
18:53 balor joined
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18:53 <Sonolin> profiling with ghc is a breeze IMO
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18:53 <sdrodge> Is that the general practice, then?
18:53 <sdrodge> Write lazy and then profile it and fix it?
18:54 <merijn> sdrodge: Well, if you get better at understanding the implications of laziness you can predict them without profiling
18:54 <Cale> So if you don't observe the values in the map, you'll end up with large expressions of the form (...((1 + 1) + 1) + ...) + 1) + 1
18:54 <sdrodge> No real guidelines to follow for inserting strictness annotations that are "obviously" right the first time you write it?
18:54 <merijn> sdrodge: Well, there are heuristics and guidelines, but they are rather tricky to articulate
18:54 <sdrodge> Cale: Is that a real cost given that I'm storing all the past versions of the map anyway?
18:54 <merijn> At least, I realise I have them, but don't know how to articulate them
18:55 <sdrodge> merijn: Know of any good write ups?
18:55 <Cale> Yes, an expression like that requires much more memory than an Int would otherwise take
18:55 <monochrom> The real guideline is to learn laziness and decide, very consciously, whether you want it or not.
18:55 <Cale> and if you wait too long before eventually evaluating it, you'll end up with a stack overflow
18:55 <Cale> because (+) is strict in both its arguments
18:55 <merijn> sdrodge: Starting point for understanding laziness would be: https://hackhands.com/guide-lazy-evaluation-haskell/
18:55 <Cale> So you'll start out with (...) + 1
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18:56 <merijn> sdrodge: A more in-depth follow up (assumes you know a little bit about C/asm) would be the STG paper: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.53.3729&rep=rep1&type=pdf
18:56 <Cale> and the outermost (+) will say, "Oh, I need to match on my first argument", and that pattern match will wait on the stack while the first argument is evaluated
18:56 <Cale> and it too will be of the form (...) + 1
18:56 <Cale> and if you have like a million of those, you'll blow up your stack
18:57 <sdrodge> merijn: My problem is that I already know how Haskell does laziness, but I find it hard to convert that knowledge into good strictness annotations while writing code.
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18:58 <Cale> My usual rule of thumb is to break things down by whether operations are taking or producing things with many or few separately evaluatable parts
18:58 <sdrodge> Cale: I see why that would be true if I were only keeping the current map around, but aren't I paying that memory penalty anyway by keeping all the maps around?
18:59 <Cale> It's the cases where something is taking many separate parts, and condensing them down into something with few parts that you want strictness.
18:59 <monochrom> That's probably just because your own strictness annotation is not enough. Libraries you use have a say too. It's why Data.Map.Strict exists. Not something you can do outside the library.
18:59 <merijn> sdrodge: Why do you think you're keeping all the maps around?
18:59 aesthetik joined
18:59 <Cale> sdrodge: No, this is a separate penalty
18:59 path[l] joined
18:59 <sdrodge> merijn: Because I'm keeping all the old maps in a sequences as state.
18:59 <sdrodge> *in a sequence
19:00 <Cale> This isn't the *Map*, this is the *Int* inside.
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19:00 <monochrom> Yes, you have "one single Int" that takes up 100MB because it's still in a "1+1+1+..." form.
19:00 <Cale> You're storing a big complicated expression for that Int which, once you evaluate it, will be replaced by a machine word or two.
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19:01 <aesthetik> Click on the link and get $110!
19:01 <aesthetik> https://richmondberks.com/?ref=rbd118972
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19:01 was kicked by monochrom: aesthetik
19:01 <sdrodge> Okay, yes, good point.
19:02 <Cale> sdrodge: Doing that sooner rather than later also makes the garbage collector's life easier, and you'll save a bunch of time on allocations.
19:02 <sdrodge> So is the generalization here that I should use insertWith' unless I specifically need the value inserted to be calculated lazily?
19:03 <SLi> I've been pondering way too long about how to best implement this (as always seems to happen when I program in Haskell :(). Essentially, I'm writing a tool that works on expressions (and-inverter-graphs, i.e each node is a binary AND operator, and the two inputs to each gate may independently either be inverted or not) and applies local rewrites. But there's a wrinkle: Expressed as trees, the expressions are huge and share a lot of subexpressions, so the
19:03 <SLi> input is provided as a DAG, and should be kept as a DAG. So need sharing. Lots of times I would like to essentially rewrite the DAG node, i.e. the expression everywhere in the tree, but other times I might want to essentially unshare it and rewrite it in only parts of the tree.
19:03 <monochrom> Why are you in such a hurry for generalizations and no-brainer rules of thumb? But yes.
19:03 <Cale> Usually... it depends of course, but yeah.
19:03 <SLi> So, I guess I could implement this as described, but I wonder there's some abstraction that could help me, like abstracting the "sharing container with ability to unshare" idea somehow.
19:04 <Cale> Sometimes it'll be profitable to store a lazy expression for something in the Map -- if computing the outcome will be expensive and you might not need the result, or if you expect the space for the result to be larger than the space for the expression.
19:04 <sdrodge> monochrom: Because it's really helpful to have guidelines/rules to follow when programming as to not overload working memory.
19:05 <monochrom> (Fortunately this is still not a no-brainer because "do I need laziness" still requires conscious rational reasoning.)
19:05 <sdrodge> If I have to spend time thinking carefully about whether I want the strict or the lazy version every single time I write a line of code, that's not good.
19:05 janos__ joined
19:05 <Cale> Well, you kind of do.
19:05 <sdrodge> Sure, but it's a matter of how hard I need to think.
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19:05 <Cale> It's just that 95% of the time, the answer is "it doesn't matter"
19:05 <monochrom> It has been pretty easy for me.
19:05 <Cale> and then the other 5% of the time, it's one way or the other and very important
19:06 <sdrodge> Oh, I see.
19:06 <sdrodge> So it's more that the cost of computing this is low enough that strictness is obviously right.
19:06 <sdrodge> Even though the value may not be needed.
19:06 <SLi> I've also looked at graph rewriting packages in hoogle. Of those, I think this looks most promising at least for testing, but I think it lacks the sharing part. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/graph-rewriting
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19:07 <Cale> sdrodge: yeah, in this case, you're not saving anything by deferring that addition until later
19:07 <monochrom> (Fortunately it is still not a no-brainer because for every line you still have to consciously rationally reason whether that line is in the 95% or in the 5%. Resistance is futile.)
19:07 <sdrodge> I'm really not looking for a no-brainer.
19:07 <Cale> monochrom: Yeah
19:07 <sdrodge> I'm just looking for a better feel about how to frame the question so that I can figure it out faster in the future.
19:07 <Cale> (though I'm not sure it's actually fortunate)
19:07 <SLi> I agree I've also had problems with laziness everywhere causing hard-to-debug memory issues. Trying strict-by-default Haskell is on my list of things to do.
19:07 <monochrom> That is called experience.
19:07 <sdrodge> Instead of the situation I currently have where I write a program and then wonder, huh, did I miss any obvious strictness annotations?
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19:08 <sdrodge> Okay, but it's even better if you can learn from others' experience instead of your own.
19:08 <SLi> Actually, almost every time I write a Haskell program that takes a moderately large input and outputs something simple I have a problem that the memory usage grows to gigabytes. I've been told religiously avoiding lazy IO helps.
19:08 <monochrom> Yes. You have a USB port in your head? I could download mine to you.
19:08 bodisiw joined
19:08 <sdrodge> So one very useful tip I seem to have learned today is that in general for inexpensive operations on small data (like addition on ints), you want to demand strictness.
19:08 <merijn> SLi: Well, lazy IO is rather rarer than people seem to think it is
19:09 <merijn> Like, there's only 5 or so lazy IO operations in base
19:09 <monochrom> Or you can send me 100 bitcoins to commission me to write a whole book on this.
19:09 <SLi> merijn: Hmm, ok.
19:09 <merijn> sdrodge: Right, that's a reasonable heuristic
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19:09 <sdrodge> monochrom: You could see if there's a way to gel your experience into a great article with worked examples!
19:09 <merijn> sdrodge: He already has that for most topics :p
19:09 <monochrom> Yes. You can send me 100 bitcoins to commission me to write it.
19:09 <SexHendrix> just written what could be the worlds slowest numerical integrator
19:09 <SexHendrix> http://lpaste.net/353356
19:10 <SexHendrix> looking for some obvious areas for speeding it up
19:10 <sdrodge> monochrom: Look, I just asked if there was such a write-up somewhere. You're the one attacking me for asking the question and suggesting this knowledge is impossible to transfer anywhere other than hard-won experience.
19:10 twopoint718 joined
19:10 <sdrodge> Cool your jets.
19:10 <monochrom> I just asked for money.
19:10 <sdrodge> :P
19:10 <monochrom> You need to take a walk.
19:11 betao joined
19:11 <monochrom> And I need a haircut.
19:11 <SLi> I need both.
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19:12 <monochrom> But what merijn said. http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/lazy.xhtml
19:12 janos__ joined
19:12 <monochrom> The foldr and foldl examples are not too different from the insertWith situation.
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19:13 <sdrodge> Yeah. I mean, I understand the foldr and foldl examples. I just find it difficult to apply that knowledge when writing larger programs.
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19:13 <sdrodge> When you guys write Haskell, do you actually stop and think about whether strictness or laziness is correct for each expression that you write?
19:13 <monochrom> Yes I do.
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19:14 <monochrom> And no, not taxing.
19:14 <Cale> sdrodge: The general rule of thumb that I use is that whenever you're taking many separately evaluatable things, and combining them together into a single indivisible value (which can't be partially evaluated), that almost always describes the places where you want the strictness annotations.
19:14 <sdrodge> Cale: Interesting.
19:14 <sdrodge> Thanks!
19:15 <merijn> sdrodge: Well, I just kinda have a feel for things, like Cale describes, and that sets of my warning "I need to pause and think" reflex
19:15 <kuribas> sdrodge: for small numerical functions, lazyness can be a high cost. I had a 10X performance increase by forcing a tuple, because keeping the closure and garbage collecting it was much more expensive.
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19:15 <sdrodge> I guess maybe the misconception that I have is that it doesn't always seem possible to reason about stricness locally.
19:15 <mniip> sdrodge, depends on what mode I'm programming in
19:15 <sdrodge> But maybe I'm missing something.
19:15 <merijn> kuribas: Well, forcing it might also help the strictness analyser
19:15 <Cale> sdrodge: Well, it's not.
19:15 <mniip> sometimes I'm writing code so that it runs well, sometimes I only need a qualitative result
19:16 <Cale> That's not a misconception -- how expressions are evaluated are something that can require insight into what the whole program is doing in general.
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19:16 <kuribas> merijn: it wasn't strict, because both values depended on the same computations.
19:16 <sdrodge> That's the part that bothers me.
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19:16 <sdrodge> Because whole program reasoning doesn't scale.
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19:17 <merijn> kuribas: No, I meant that adding the strictness might lead the strictness analyser to kick in and unbox things
19:17 <merijn> sdrodge: That's a downside yes, but there's also an upside!
19:17 <kuribas> merijn: right
19:17 <sdrodge> Don't worry, I'm not upset about laziness.
19:17 <sdrodge> I love it.
19:17 <merijn> sdrodge: If you have code that is "too strict", making it lazier requires changing ALL the code
19:17 <SLi> So, I wonder if it would be possible to write some... thing that takes any type (Hashable a, Eq a, Functor f) => f a and produces an isomorphic type with observable sharing of a. Though that still wouldn't work for sharing subtrees in trees. Hmh.
19:17 <sdrodge> I just want to learn how to manage the lazy/strict choice better.
19:18 <merijn> sdrodge: Whereas, making something that's "too lazy" stricter is a local code change (see foldl vs foldl')
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19:18 <merijn> sdrodge: So the upside is that code that's too lazy can be fixed/worked around without needing to change any original code, which cannot be said for too strict
19:18 <merijn> But it's time to log off!
19:18 <sdrodge> Cale, merijn: Out of curiosity, do you tend to default to Data.Map.Strict or Data.Map.Lazy?
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19:18 <monochrom> "whole-program" is the pathological worst case. It rarely happens. For most programs, especially well-structured ones, very few parts actually has access to the data in question, even though those few parts don't sit together.
19:18 <sdrodge> merijn: Thanks for the help!
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19:19 <Cale> sdrodge: Data.Map.Lazy
19:19 <monochrom> So instead, it is "everyone has access to everything" that doesn't scale.
19:19 <kuribas> sdrodge: the morale is I think don't keep thunks that are cheap to evaluate, or will be evaluated anyway.
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19:19 <Cale> There are only a few operations which need strictness.
19:19 <sdrodge> monochrom: Fair enough.
19:20 <Cale> sdrodge: But note that it's not mutually exclusive
19:20 <Cale> The actual type is the same, only the functions are different.
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19:20 <Cale> Data.Map.Strict just has functions that force evaluation of the elements of the Map that they interact with.
19:20 <sdrodge> Oh, didn't realize that.
19:21 <sdrodge> How about other cases where it is mutually exclusive?
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19:21 <sdrodge> Like Control.Monad.State.{Lazy, Strict}
19:21 <sdrodge> Do you tend to default to Lazy or Strict?
19:21 <sdrodge> Is the answer the same or different for ST?
19:21 <Cale> For Control.Monad.State I just import Control.Monad.State
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19:21 <sdrodge> So that's the Lazy one.
19:21 <Cale> which I believe gets me the Lazy one, yeah
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19:22 <Cale> That doesn't matter too much in practice -- it's referring to whether the pairs are being forced in the definition of bind
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19:23 <Cale> i.e. whether it's x >>= f = State (\s -> let (v,s') = runState x s in runState (f v) s')
19:23 <Cale> or x >>= f = State (\s -> case runState x s of (v,s') -> runState (f v) s')
19:24 <monochrom> Actually they use "(v, s')" vs "~(v, s')" now.
19:24 <Cale> fair enough (should be the same thing)
19:24 <Cale> Note that even with Control.Monad.State.Strict, you can still have the state itself be an unevaluated expression
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19:25 <monochrom> (and an implicit case. Why implicit? Because they obtained the "case" from do-notation. Why do-notation? Because it's StateT, even if it's StateT Identity)
19:25 <Cale> ah, right, that makes sense :)
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19:25 <sdrodge> So it seems I am missing something here. What is the significance of forcing the tuple directly in the bind vs. not?
19:26 <monochrom> Yes this one is very sutble.
19:26 <monochrom> My http://lpaste.net/41790/ shows what could happen.
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19:28 <monochrom> In this case I do have a rule of thumb. But it is only because of statistics on how people use Control.Monad.State empirically.
19:29 <monochrom> When people use Control.Monad.State, 100% of the time they imagine that they're writing C or Pascal or Algol or something.
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19:29 <monochrom> The Strict version is the one closer to their fantasy. This is why it is the safe default.
19:30 <sdrodge> Does that mean you think State was the wrong choice for that example program I shared?
19:30 <monochrom> The Lazy version corresponds to an imperative language that no one has thought of. (Except in my thesis.)
19:30 <dolio> What if they imagine they're writing Algol 68?
19:30 <monochrom> Well this is where the empirical statistics comes in. 0% of the people actually do that.
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19:31 <Cale> In my experience, people usually don't care and import Control.Monad.State, which makes that the sensible default regardless of its semantics
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19:32 <monochrom> Ah but they have a high chance of consuming more memory than they need.
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19:32 <dolio> Strict used to avoid some stack overflows from really big computations. But I guess that's gone now.
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19:33 <monochrom> There is a conspiracy in the correlation between "I am lazy, I just type 'Control.Monad.State'" and "it gets me Control.Monad.State.Lazy".
19:34 ramzifu joined
19:34 <Cale> Of course, that only matters if you expose things which involve explicitly the State/StateT you imported, which you probably shouldn't do anyway :P
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19:34 <dolio> The maintainers are also too lazy to bother changing the semantics from when the lazy version was the only one that was offered.
19:34 <sdrodge> I guess when it comes to performance, all abstractions are leaky.
19:36 <Cale> sdrodge: Right -- depending on the amount of pain you want to take in making your programs time and space efficient, you might need to break through any abstraction barrier. Eventually you reach a point where it's no longer worth the trouble.
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19:37 <kuribas> for performance, you should look at bottlenecks first.
19:38 <sdrodge> Sure. I mean, I understand that premature optimization is bad, and that you should look where the actual bottlenecks are before optimizing.
19:38 <sdrodge> But at the same time, there are usually rule of thumb sane defaults to get reasonable performance that you should follow when writing.
19:38 <kuribas> sdrodge: premature optimization is ok when you know what you are doing :)
19:39 <sdrodge> I'm trying to figure out what those rules are w.r.t. strictness in Haskell, though.
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19:40 <kuribas> sdrodge: in general, or with a particular library?
19:40 <sdrodge> Either, honestly.
19:41 <sdrodge> Like, if there's good rules of thumb with particular commonly used libraries or data structures, I'd love to hear it.
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19:41 <kuribas> sdrodge: I made my datatypes in my numerical library strict, since it doesn't make sense to make them lazy.
19:42 <sdrodge> I tend to make all my data structures strict unless I have a specific reason not to.
19:42 <sdrodge> But that's the only strictness optimization that I tend to do.
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19:42 <kuribas> there's also lazy Bytestring and strict Bytestring.
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19:43 <kuribas> lazy Bytestring for streaming, strict for random access...
19:43 <sdrodge> For some reason, I find that one much easier to reason about.
19:43 <johnw> although, lazy ByteString is somewhat of an interface on top of strict ByteString
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19:43 <johnw> Lazy.ByteString = [Strict.ByteString]
19:43 <kuribas> lazy bytestring is great
19:43 <sdrodge> except it's head strict, right?
19:44 <kuribas> sdrodge: I wouldn't worry about it, unless profiling or benchmarking shows lazyness is a problem.
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19:45 <SexHendrix> muh stack overflows
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20:03 <stelleg1> is there a way to load the extensions listed in a file along with the definitions?
20:03 fizruk joined
20:03 <stelleg1> gets tedious setting them all with :set -XBlah
20:04 <stelleg1> *in ghci
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20:06 <AndreasK> stelleg1: You can use a .ghci file
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20:06 <JonReed> stelleg1: I don't think so. But there is .ghci file thaht can be used to load them automatically
20:06 <JonReed> stelleg1: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.2.2/docs/html/users_guide/ghci-dot-files.html
20:06 <stelleg1> thanks
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20:10 <JonReed> Can anybody provide me a working example of providing defaults in a lens way. How to make this `[42] ^? ix 0` to return not `Maybe Int` but `Int`. I know how to do this with Maps `Map.empty ^.at "key" . non 0`, but my brain can't process how to do it with lists
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20:14 <tapirus> I'm trying to sort two lists in a way that's slightly different from lexicographic order. As an example, 'compare [LT,GT] [LT,GT,LT,...]' 'compare [LT,GT] [LT,GT,EQ,...]' and 'compare [LT,GT] [LT,GT,GT,...]' all return LT. I'd like them to return LT, EQ, and GT respectively. Is there any simple way of doing this?
20:15 <johnw> JonReed: Use ^?!
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20:16 <JonReed> johnw: But how to provide default? This will error out instead
20:16 <JonReed> johnw: I want it to return default value if Nothing is encountered
20:17 <JonReed> I know how to do it non-lens way with fromMaybe 42 $ .. lens stuff here
20:17 <JonReed> but the lens way escapes me
20:18 <Profpatsch> Concerning the regex package (which was announced a bit ago)
20:18 <Profpatsch> Of course everybody wants to say she build the One True Solution
20:18 <supki> > [] ^?! (ix 0 `failing` like 42)
20:18 <lambdabot> 42
20:18 <Profpatsch> But isn’t it a bit presumptuous to just call the package `regex`
20:18 JuanMiguel joined
20:19 <Profpatsch> When all that came before used some suffix.
20:19 <muesli4> tapirus: So you only want to compare the minimal length? E.g. wrap it in a newtype whose Ord instance brings them to the same length and then compares them.
20:19 takle joined
20:19 <Profpatsch> Originally wanted to reply that to the announcement mail, but that ML is probably not for discussions.
20:19 <JonReed> supki: Thanks!
20:21 <muesli4> tapirus: Something like: compare (Shortedned xs) (Shortened ys) = (let { zs = zip xs ys ; xs' = fst <$> zs ; ys' = snd <$> ys } in compare xs' ys'
20:21 alexknvl joined
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20:22 <SexHendrix> is there a way to do solids of revolution numerically
20:23 <SexHendrix> ive written a program that does integrals numerically given function and limits
20:23 <SexHendrix> can it do revolutions the same way?
20:23 <tapirus> muesli4: cheers, looking at this
20:23 KindOne joined
20:24 <johnw> Profpatsch: time to grab the "haskell" name, I guess
20:24 umib0zu joined
20:24 <Profpatsch> johnw: Go for it.
20:26 paolino joined
20:26 <Profpatsch> johnw: http://profpatsch.de/lulz/the_lulz.jpg
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20:30 <lpaste_> Noobie22 pasted “Easy question” at http://lpaste.net/353360
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20:31 <lpaste_> Noobie22 revised “Easy question”: “Easy question” at http://lpaste.net/353360
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20:32 <jle`> noobie22: did you have a question? :)
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20:34 <Profpatsch> “remains the best example of developing regular expressions at scale”
20:34 <Profpatsch> I’m scared now.
20:35 <Profpatsch> But it could be pretty handy for shell contexts.
20:36 phyrex1an joined
20:36 <AWizzArd> How would one typically represent a configuration in Haskell? data Config = { key1::Int, key2::[Float], …, keyN::SomeType } ?
20:36 <Tuplanolla> @hackage dry-run
20:36 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/dry-run
20:36 <Tuplanolla> This would also be a great package name.
20:37 tomphp joined
20:37 <maerwald> AWizzArd: how's that question answerable. There's no such thing as a typical way of something like that
20:37 meoblast001 joined
20:38 schjetne joined
20:38 <AWizzArd> maerwald: well, I am thinking of Hashmap vs own data type, with a certain number of key/value pairs.
20:38 indi_ joined
20:38 <AWizzArd> Is access to fields of a data type with 84 fields efficient?
20:38 <maerwald> I think darcs does it
20:39 <Tuplanolla> You can split it up into smaller parts that tend to change together, AWizzArd.
20:40 <SexHendrix> > let lucky n | mod n 7 == 0 = "LUCKY" | otherwise = "out of luck"; lucky' n = lucky <$> [0..n] in lucky' 10
20:40 <lambdabot> ["LUCKY","out of luck","out of luck","out of luck","out of luck","out of luc...
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20:46 <cdornan> Profpatsch: the idea with reflex is that it should become the goto API for regex-base, the defacto regex framework for these last 10 years, so it is logical at least
20:47 hamishmack joined
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20:47 <ezyang> "reflex" haha
20:48 chlong_ joined
20:49 <cdornan> How about turning that around -- could be good that there is a serious effort to produce a definitive regex package
20:50 <Cale> cdornan: Wait, someone is naming a regex-related package "reflex"?
20:50 <Cale> ~trademark issues~
20:50 <cdornan> ezyang: I have cut down deps on library and added escape functions
20:50 hazmat_ joined
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20:50 <blackdog> that's gonna be kinda confusing
20:50 <cdornan> Noooo -- that was my autocorrector
20:51 <Cale> ah, good
20:51 <cdornan> Package is called "regex"
20:51 asmyers joined
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20:51 <geekosaur> someone fatfingered "refex" at a guess. they must be borrowing my fingers :p
20:52 <cdornan> Fat autocorrector!
20:52 <dolio> You need really fat fingers to hit l when trying to hit f.
20:52 <Cale> Well, the main reason that regex-base hadn't seen any love is because Haskell programmers mostly don't use regexes for anything
20:52 <maerwald> they should
20:52 <johnw> although, they probably would, if they were asy to use
20:52 <Cale> (apart from via other tools, like text editors and sed)
20:52 <geekosaur> neh, they typoed regex as refex and autoincorrect added the l to get a word
20:53 <johnw> spending 30 mins trying to figure out regexps in Haskell usually leads people to Parsec as a simpler alternative
20:53 <cdornan> I agree -- a mistake , as I say in my blog post
20:53 <Cale> I can imagine some use cases where you'd want *actual* regular expressions, for performance reasons
20:53 Copperis joined
20:53 <geekosaur> althogh re regex, see recent -cafe message
20:53 <Cale> (due to the ability to compile to DFAs)
20:53 <maerwald> Cale: no, for complexity reasons
20:53 <Cale> Yes
20:53 <maerwald> don't make your recognizer more complex than your input language
20:53 Noldorin joined
20:54 <maerwald> that's a security principle, not a performance thing
20:54 <geekosaur> I have snarked here about the Text.Regex interface being intended to push people as far away from regexes as possible
20:54 <Cale> Well, parser combinator based parsers aren't necessarily of higher complexity anyway
20:54 <johnw> I remember as a young Haskeller reaching for regexs, only to pull back a bloody stump
20:54 <maerwald> computationally yes
20:54 Rodya_ joined
20:54 <johnw> and the problem is, even when you've figured out the interface, they don't really get any easier to use
20:55 <Cale> Yeah, regex-base is terrible, and if someone really needs regular expressions, they should probably build something else.
20:55 <muesli4> tapirus: My solution was actually wrong, am I correct that you want something like this? http://codepad.org/xVRPCH2t
20:55 <ezyang> I don't understand why we don't just have regular expression combinators
20:55 <geekosaur> regex-applicative?
20:55 <ezyang> people complain all the time about regexes being unreadable
20:56 <ezyang> sure :)
20:56 <johnw> I like regex-applicative for building up complex regex expressions
20:56 <geekosaur> also, the counternark to Text.Regex is how often we get someone who first asks how to use it, then asks what regex they want...
20:56 <cdornan> Was just going to say regex-applicative
20:56 <johnw> so says ^e(dward)z\.?yang$
20:56 <geekosaur> which *ought* to be a hint that maybe reaching for regex is not the right answer
20:56 <maerwald> the demonization of regular expressions in the haskell community is a consequence of the fact that parser combinators are more elegant to do in haskell
20:57 <muesli4> tapirus: Basically, when the suffix stays below a reference value it is seen as lower (above -> higher, on the reference value -> equal).
20:57 <johnw> maerwald: regexs *should* be a strict subset of those combinators, that restricts what you can say in a way that results in even clearer error messages about what you might have done wrong
20:57 e14 joined
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20:58 <johnw> while the "foo" type regex strings are just an alternate syntax, so who cares about that anyway
20:58 <Cale> Everyone knows that the only acceptable place to use regular expressions is as part of sed expressions in your .nix build scripts to hack the export lists on people's modules when they didn't export shit that you need. ;)
20:58 defaultnick joined
20:58 <cdornan> All true but not having conventional high quality regex API is not good in my experience
20:58 <hexagoxel> no, the usual notation to express regular expression does not leave room to write comments. this is in contrast with haskell's philosophy of writing extensive documentation for all code.
20:58 <johnw> Cale: and in the Perl scripts I use to patch the results of Coq's unverified extractor, thus resulting in complete confidence
20:59 <Cale> lol
20:59 michael4 joined
20:59 <Cale> hexagoxel: lol
20:59 <Aruro> are there many commercial standalone haskell apps ? beside hledger and haskell studio for mac ?
20:59 <maerwald> johnw: I don't understand. error messages in parser combinators are rarely clear
21:00 <Cale> Aruro: Do they also have to be open source?
21:00 <maerwald> ofc, depends on the library
21:00 <johnw> maerwald: that exactly my point; they are less clear the more general the combinators
21:00 <Aruro> Cale: no, just haskell
21:00 indi_ joined
21:00 <Aruro> only requirement it has to be an "app" not "We are doing consulting"
21:00 <ezyang> to me, the bigger problem with string regexes is lack of compositionality
21:00 <Cale> Aruro: Well, we build web applications for various clients entirely in Haskell.
21:01 <Cale> (and, more recently, mobile versions of those)
21:01 <maerwald> johnw: well, my point is rather the computational complexity of the recognizer. Choose the minimal complexity, not just for the input language, but also for the recognizer (if it can properly _detect_ it). Mitigating SQL injection with regexes is plain wrong
21:01 <Aruro> so apart from hledger and mac studio there are no haskell made apps? excluding industry internals.
21:01 <cdornan> ezyang: agreed -- one reason for adding macros and testbench to regex
21:01 <johnw> or how about writing RFC822 e-mail parsers
21:01 <Cale> Aruro: There are a bunch of industrial users of Haskell who have closed source apps.
21:01 <dolio> There are a bunch of problems with string regexes.
21:02 <Cale> Aruro: Well, there are a bunch of other open source things, but those I thought were more obvious.
21:02 indi_ joined
21:02 <Cale> Pandoc, XMonad
21:02 <Aruro> Cale: so haskell economics is all about internal interbuiseness solutions?
21:02 <Aruro> why not making apps?
21:03 <Cale> Like, what kind of apps?
21:03 takle joined
21:03 <Aruro> which people can buy. like paragon for example
21:03 defaultnick_ joined
21:03 <Cale> Most money is in web development these days
21:03 <blackdog> do you mean SaaS stuff?
21:03 <johnw> the best feature of regexs is how much they can liven up any IRC channel
21:03 <johnw> Cale: you'd think the Web would have been fully developed by now
21:03 <Cale> haha
21:03 <blackdog> johnw: think growth as in cancer
21:03 <Cale> Well, we're working on it
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21:04 <Aruro> like even commercial modeling software, or even SaaS buiseness applications
21:04 <Cale> Hopefully we can get things to a place where it's not such a big effort
21:04 <blackdog> Aruro: sure. betterteam.com is in haskell.
21:04 <blackdog> the point is, you wouldn't know unless somebody told you.
21:04 snowalpaca joined
21:05 <Aruro> i mean what stops developers to use haskell for end user programs?
21:05 <Aruro> excluding - cloud,services and such
21:05 <Xe> Aruro: managers
21:05 <Cale> Aruro: Almost nobody sells those at all?
21:05 <Aruro> why? i bout ntfs driver for mac from paragon, seems ok.
21:05 <Aruro> bought*
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21:06 <Cale> I guess on Mac, there are some things which inexplicably cost money but which would ordinarily be part of your OS
21:06 <Aruro> i mean i would support good haskell developer of something nice
21:06 <blackdog> Aruro: nothing, really. i guess there isn't a clear winner in terms of writing graphical interfaces?
21:06 defaultnick_ joined
21:06 <geekosaur> r/o ntfs driver is built in, later releases have a hidden partial r/w support option
21:07 <blackdog> it's just way easier to make money by putting your code on a server, rather than dealing with licensing etc.
21:07 sssilver joined
21:07 <Aruro> so licensing is one of the issues?
21:08 <dolio> It's an issue with writing software.
21:08 <geekosaur> this isn;t so inexplicable because r/w ntfs info used to require microsoft nda. linux emulated it via an ugly hack (which basically meant do stuff and let ntfs journaling sort it out on the next windows boot. yes, this worked about as well as you could expect)
21:09 <kuribas> blackdog: GUI's support isn't the best in haskell.
21:09 FullyFunctional joined
21:10 <ongy> I'd say the haskell ecosystem makes it annoying to distribute licensed software, since dependencies have licenses all over the place and nobody cares
21:10 gabe4k joined
21:10 <Aruro> take alphasheets, their task is perfect for an app, but it will be webservice ? they do have some haskell coding there
21:10 <kuribas> ongy: most haskell libraries are BSD.
21:10 <ongy> I have seen a package (some library bindings) that has a conflicting license to the library. Which the author explicitly states
21:11 <maerwald> unfortunately
21:11 <ongy> kuribas: except for the (l)gpl ones
21:11 <Cale> ongy: Which package?
21:11 <ongy> I don't remember which one. I don't think I ended up using it
21:11 <Cale> Note that you can distribute BSD bindings to a GPL library, so long as you don't distribute the GPLed library with it.
21:11 <dolio> The majority of programmers don't care about licenses, regardless of which language they use.
21:11 <maerwald> people just seem to use what random thing "cabal init" suggests (which is BSD-3 afair)
21:11 <maerwald> and that's a pity
21:12 <Theophane> `stack legal` could be very useful ;)
21:12 <ongy> Cale: it was something like this. But it's a bit more annoying if someone intended to distribute it the usual windows way with libraries included
21:12 <Cale> Whatever you're making bindings to might as well be proprietary from your perspective if you're not distributing the code.
21:12 <Theophane> (or `cabal legal`)
21:12 <Cale> ongy: That's true.
21:12 <kuribas> ongy: how is that different from any other language?
21:13 <Xe> kuribas: unlike php you don't need to dencrypt your source code at runtime
21:13 <Xe> (such monsters do exist in this world)
21:13 <ongy> kuribas: I have seen *less* of that in the C(++) ecosystem. But maybe I just cared less
21:13 meoblast001 joined
21:14 <ongy> it's not language specific, but I feel like nobody cares. because for the main usecase (user downloads from hackage/stackage and builds/links themself) it doesn't matter
21:14 <jle`> huh didn't realize that hackagebot has been gone for over three months now
21:14 <jle`> i'll miss that little bot
21:14 <jle`> rest in peace hackagebot
21:14 <ongy> but if someone wanted to use it commercially and distribute binaries with *batteries included* (or for windows) things get hairy
21:14 janos joined
21:14 <maerwald> why?
21:15 <Aruro> even for support scheme? like donate and spport me?
21:15 <maerwald> ongy: why would that be a problem?
21:15 <Cale> Well, ongy has a point -- the fact that you can't figure out from the license on the Haskell binding what to do about the library it's a binding to might be a bit annoying if you have a ton of dependencies to go through.
21:16 <Cale> But I dunno, packaging stuff for Windows already seems like a pain.
21:16 <Aruro> linux users have money too
21:16 <Aruro> :)
21:16 <Aruro> question is where is haskell monetization ecosystem? even in form of donations
21:17 <Cale> It comes from various startups and other companies who pay us to build reliable software
21:17 <blackdog> kuribas: yeah, that's what i meant - we haven't concentrated behind a single framework or approach, so no single codebase gets the work.
21:17 curious_corn joined
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21:18 <blackdog> (which isn't a criticism, it's just not obvious what the best way forward is, and bluntly without a large base of people writing gui software nobody's that interested)
21:18 <kuribas> blackdog: I think it's more of a lack of interest in GUI code in general.
21:18 <ongy> maerwald: I have no example, but if there was a package that depended on another one and they have incompatible licenses, distributing binaries wouldn't be possible to my understanding
21:18 rperry joined
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21:18 <blackdog> Aruro: i tend to think the easiest path is just writing fast, safe web apps.
21:18 <maerwald> ongy: probably, I just didn't understand what "commercially" has to do with that
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21:19 <ongy> maerwald: most others don't give a damn, or just put it on hackage aswell and don't distribute binaries
21:19 <kuribas> blackdog: maybe because people think pure functional isn't a good much for the imperative nature of GUIs?
21:19 <ongy> blackdog: I think you can drop both fast and safe there....
21:20 <ongy> Aruro: I don't think there's any monetization options on hackage (or anywhere) maybe some people have donation buttons on their project websites
21:20 <Aruro> yeah, hledger has, would be interesting to hear his feedback
21:20 <ongy> if I ever get a userbase that's bigger than the people I know, I may put something up aswell
21:21 guampa joined
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21:21 <blackdog> ongy: why?
21:21 <blackdog> i mean, just by default you're going to have faster safer code than your average rubyist.
21:22 <blackdog> (i know this because i am a very average rubyist)
21:22 <ongy> have you seen the web? I doesn't look like safe and fast are a requirement these days. It's good to have, but...
21:22 <ystael> ongy: distinguish "requirement for running a business" from "requirement for making something you would actually want to work on" :)
21:22 <ongy> oh and I'm mixing safe and secure again. But still applies even for safe
21:23 <ongy> ystael: The starting question was about the money :)
21:23 <ystael> oh, yes, I see
21:23 <Aruro> about economy of haskell codebase
21:23 <Aruro> money support/motivation
21:24 <Aruro> hledger is not distributed on windows, so windows pain seems real.
21:25 <maerwald> it's ok to not support windows
21:25 <maerwald> it's an unethical operating system, taking away pretty much all user freedoms
21:25 <ongy> for GHC there's a few people that are payed by companies. Microsoft research for example
21:25 <ystael> Is it OK to advertise jobs in here?
21:26 insitu joined
21:27 <ongy> people do from time to time. But IRC may not be the best platform to do so (volatile, and with a fast-ish channel like this not many people will see it)
21:28 <ezyang> cdornan: You mispelled regex as reflex on Reddit too :P
21:29 meoblast001 joined
21:30 <cdornan> ezyang: Corrected -- thanks!
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21:31 <tapirus> muesli4: thanks yeah, this looks like what I was looking for :) thanks!
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21:41 <tapirus> why does compare [EQ] (repeat EQ) return LT?
21:41 <jle`> > "hi" < "hill"
21:41 <lambdabot> True
21:41 <jle`> it's dictionary ordering
21:41 <jle`> would "hi" or "hill" come first in a dictionary?
21:41 <blackdog> i guess that's the same question as compare [] (repeat EQ), really.
21:41 <tapirus> hmm
21:42 <blackdog> wait, jle` 's explanation is better, ignore me
21:42 <tapirus> I guess intuitvely I expected it to behave as zipWith (compare) [EQ] (repeat EQ)
21:42 Koterpillar joined
21:42 <glguy> jle`: How heavy do you suppose this dictionary containing infinitely long words would be?
21:42 <jle`> so it should return an [Ordering] ?
21:42 <tapirus> but yeah, I get jle`s's explanation
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21:42 <jle`> :t compare
21:42 <lambdabot> Ord a => a -> a -> Ordering
21:42 <monochrom> Intuition is fantasy.
21:42 <jle`> compare returns an Ordering, not an 'a'
21:43 ramzifu joined
21:44 <jle`> tapirus: what would you have expected the answer to be?
21:44 Ariakenom joined
21:45 <nitrix> Can someone with a reasonable understanding of decision trees (used as classifiers) kind of breif me on the minimal operations (decisions) the tree needs to support to perform its classification work?
21:46 gabe4k joined
21:46 <nitrix> The inputs are doubles in the range [0, 1]. I'm guessing X > Y and X * Y > Z ?
21:46 cyborg-one joined
21:46 <nitrix> Is this the most minimal?
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21:48 <nitrix> Actually X * Y > Z makes no sense, unless I don't have a tree with a single root, but a directed graph instead.
21:48 <jle`> what are you calling X, Y, and Z here?
21:48 <tapirus> jle`: yeah sorry, I just wrote that zipWith statement but that's not what I really meant...I get the right answer now, but for a moment, I was expecting that if I took some arbitrary array, say x, and compared it with (repeat n), then the result would be the same as (compare x (replicate (length x) y)
21:49 <nitrix> This is starting to look like a neural network. Let me think a little and ask a better question.
21:49 <jle`> tapirus: ah
21:49 <jle`> tapirus: how would you even implement that?
21:49 conal joined
21:50 <jle`> you can't test if a list was created with 'repeat' or not
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22:22 <* monochrom> is tempted to reply in haskell-cafe "No, this is an abuse of programs. Programs are not wrong, humans are."
22:23 conal_ joined
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22:25 <kuribas> > let (+) = (-) in 1 + 1
22:25 <lambdabot> 0
22:25 sellout- joined
22:26 <glguy> monochrom: Which thread?
22:27 <monochrom> To [] or not to []
22:27 <Ariakenom> > let (+) = (*) in 2+2
22:27 <lambdabot> 4
22:28 <monochrom> So the original poster wrote statement of the form "if you use list for <a purpose that list is bad at>, your program is wrong"
22:28 <monochrom> And I think "your program is wrong" is a hyperbole and we should take it as such, rather than arguing semantics.
22:28 <maerwald> you're deliberately misinterpreting what he said I think
22:29 <monochrom> But Richard O'Keefe did decide to argue semantics. "This is an abuse of the word 'wrong'"
22:29 <maerwald> but I realize this sort of nitpicking is very characteristic to the haskell community
22:30 <maerwald> and ofc can be fun at times
22:30 <monochrom> maerwald, I did not nitpick, O'Keefe did.
22:30 <monochrom> Or rather, since O'Keefe felt like nitpicking, I would nitpick the nitpicker.
22:30 <maerwald> xD
22:31 hiratara joined
22:32 <jmcarthur> Is this metanitpicking?
22:32 <maerwald> haha
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22:33 <monochrom> No, this is reductio ad absurdum
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22:39 <kuribas> we call it fucking ants
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22:40 <kuribas> mierenneuken
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22:45 <* kuribas> wishes haskell had better debuggers
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22:49 <frontendloader> kuribas: "The compiler is your debugger" - #haskell
22:49 <kuribas> it sucks
22:50 <ezyang> invest in your logging infra
22:50 <kuribas> I have a long list of data representing bezier curves, it's giving me a headache...
22:50 <monochrom> frontendloader, I have seen in the past few days that kuribas's debugging need exceeds what type-checking can do.
22:51 <frontendloader> I agree with him, being able to step through/inspect code is how I learn/progress primarily
22:51 janos joined
22:52 <benzrf> i debug using the repl
22:52 <kuribas> monochrom: yeah, it's numerical code.
22:53 <kuribas> monochrom: on the other hand I am abusing Data.Set, so it may be my fault...
22:53 balor joined
22:53 <monochrom> I can't imagine how Data.Set could possibly be abused...
22:53 janos joined
22:53 <kuribas> monochrom: I have an ordering of curves, which implies they don't touch.
22:54 <kuribas> monochrom: so I am using Data.Set as a binary tree
22:55 <kuribas> maybe debugging numerical code is just hard in general...
22:55 <monochrom> Ah, maybe you don't really have a total order. Yeah that could be abuse, but still not always.
22:56 <kuribas> monochrom: it's total as long as the invariant holds.
22:56 seangrove joined
22:57 <monochrom> Hmm. Debug the invariant? :)
22:57 <kuribas> yeah, I have many assertions now
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22:58 <`Guest03> how to poke an array efficiently?
22:59 <`Guest03> array comes from a list
22:59 <`Guest03> so, poke a list
22:59 <`Guest03> into adjacent locations as array
22:59 <monochrom> There is no efficient way for lists. Use a real array.
22:59 <`Guest03> oh, a question i wanted to ask
23:00 sellout- joined
23:00 <`Guest03> if i write: arr = ByteString.pack [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]
23:00 <monochrom> Most array libraries have a "fromList" function or such for dumping a list into an array.
23:00 <`Guest03> as top-level definition
23:00 <`Guest03> what will it do at compile time and runtime?
23:01 <monochrom> Compile time will preserve that expression. Run time will do the conversion at most once, then memoize.
23:01 P1RATEZ joined
23:01 <`Guest03> monochrom: can i get it to convert it at compile time without TemplateHaskell?
23:02 <monochrom> No.
23:02 <`Guest03> i want that
23:02 <monochrom> Yes. Write a GHC plugin.
23:02 <kuribas> doesn't ghc unroll short expressions?
23:02 <monochrom> 5 hours of template haskell can be saved by 5 months of GHC plugin.
23:02 manlet joined
23:03 <monochrom> FSVO "short"
23:03 sellout-1 joined
23:03 <monochrom> Pretty sure "x :: Int; x = 1+1" is compile-time simplified.
23:03 janos joined
23:03 <`Guest03> can we have it in future
23:03 <AWizzArd> System.Random.MWC – is it possible to use this to select a random item out of a list?
23:04 <kuribas> monochrom: because it's an arithmetic primitive...
23:04 <monochrom> I don't know the future.
23:04 <maerwald> I do, but only if you pay me...
23:04 ziocroc2 joined
23:05 defaultnick__ joined
23:05 <glguy> and when we don't the future is a blur to you?
23:05 <maerwald> exactly
23:05 Luke_ joined
23:07 <`Guest03> monochrom: i want to have a Ptr to an array of hardcoded data
23:07 <`Guest03> what is best way?
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23:07 <monochrom> I don't know. GHC.Prim may or may not help.
23:08 kvda joined
23:08 <glguy> Data.ByteString.Char8.pack "the bytestring"
23:08 jmcarthur joined
23:09 <monochrom> Is the rest of your program so highly optimized that the only thing left to do is optimizing initialization?
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23:10 <`Guest03> monochrom: i don't care, i consider deferring conversion to runtime ugly
23:10 mbw joined
23:10 <`Guest03> i want to not have ugly things in my program
23:11 <monochrom> I think we talked about this before.
23:11 leafgreen joined
23:11 <glguy> You can put the data in a .c file and import that via the FFI
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23:11 Javran joined
23:12 <leafgreen> I have a question about the syntax of module. Why is it that the whole .hs file doesn't have to be indented with respect to the "module" lines at the beginning?
23:12 <glguy> I'd be a waste
23:12 <glguy> (but you can do it)
23:12 <glguy> it'd*
23:12 <glguy> I might be, too
23:12 <leafgreen> Is it just a special case in the parsing rule?
23:12 B4tMaN joined
23:12 <leafgreen> since it is still using a "where" typically
23:13 <monochrom> This is not a special case.
23:13 <glguy> the parsing rules for module aren't really a special case, just a case
23:13 <monochrom> There is, actually, no rule saying "after 'where' you must indent"
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23:13 <mbw> Hello everybody. I had to write a property test for my program, using hspec/QuickCheck. Luckily, I seem to have found the error immediately. I have a property prop_inequal :: SomeType -> Bool, which internally creates all the values that the argument should NOT compare equal to. So this test indeed failed. However, only the argument that triggered the failure is printed, and I do not know which other value
23:14 <mbw> it unexpectedly compared equal to. I presume my property should either be of a different type, or there should be some fancy verbose flag. Does anybody know about this?
23:14 <Tuplanolla> Use `===`, mbw.
23:14 <mbw> I'll try that.
23:14 <monochrom> The real rule is only of relative indentation. If you are comparing two scopes, then the inner scope needs to be more indented than the outer scope.
23:14 zero_byte joined
23:14 <dmj`> :t verboseCheck
23:14 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Property.Testable prop => prop -> IO ()
23:15 <monochrom> But the top level has no even-more-outer thing to compare to.
23:15 <leafgreen> I see, monochrom
23:15 <monochrom> In fact, " module F where" "x = True" works just fine.
23:16 <`Guest03> hmm
23:16 <`Guest03> one function withArray solves my problem perfectly.
23:16 ddere joined
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23:16 <mbw> Tuplanolla: It has to work on lists, i.e. it should replace prop g = all (== g) valids, and prop' g = g `notElem` invalids, respectively.
23:17 ilja_kuklic joined
23:17 <`Guest03> except
23:17 <`Guest03> length
23:17 <`Guest03> withArrayLen
23:17 certainty joined
23:18 <`Guest03> except the length is in elements, not bytes...
23:20 <mbw> I'm sure I'll find the other fancy operators once I'm done accidentally building the haddock documentation...
23:20 alexknvl joined
23:22 <ezyang> Suppose that you can either define a helper function in a where clause, or top level. Which do you prefer? how do you decide?
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23:24 <`Guest03> ezyang: where clause
23:24 <`Guest03> except if it would be used by more than one function
23:24 <glguy> Inside is nice if I want to be able to use a few other where-claused defined things all of which share common values and/or access to the arguments of the parent
23:24 epsilonhalbe left
23:24 k0001_ joined
23:24 <glguy> outside the where clause otherwise so I can test it out independently from GHCi
23:24 <monochrom> Top level for the first few months (for easier testing and debugging). Then inner.
23:26 <ezyang> Quite a variation of responses! :O
23:26 <glguy> visibility can be managed by export lists, if the module gets too big I can make a new module
23:26 <monochrom> Then outer again because I am explaining it to someone else and I want to demo it. Then inner again.
23:26 <monochrom> This flipflopping continues indefinitely.
23:26 <ezyang> Sometimes I feel like if you put it in a where clause, you often have free variables that you shouldn't
23:26 Rizy joined
23:27 <glguy> having those free variables is why you'd put it in a where clause in the first place :) that seems like a contradiction
23:27 <monochrom> That kind of thinking will get you into the trouble of combinatory logic.
23:27 <ezyang> well, maybe it's just one or two new parameters
23:27 <ezyang> and the top level brings, like 10 names into scope
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23:32 <mbw> Ok I found out that I can do something like prop g = conjoin $ (=== g) <$> valids. However, I don't see an analogous inequality operator. How would I express that?
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23:33 <`Guest03> i'm pleasantly surprised with highlevelness of some binding libraries
23:33 <michalrus> Hey! Quick (silly?) question: I have a list of functions, say, [a -> Maybe b], but I would also want each of them to have access to its own state — each state being of different type, unknown/transparent to the call site using this list. What would be the best way to approach this?
23:34 <glguy> What's state?
23:34 <`Guest03> you could think it would have ugly low-level types which need conversion every time, but no
23:34 <monochrom> There is no "state".
23:34 <`Guest03> not all types are high-level, but most are
23:34 <jle`> michalrus: well, each function can have its own closure
23:35 <`Guest03> shaderSource :: Shader -> StateVar [String] -- how cool, native strings.
23:35 <jle`> but by state, do you mean some sort of environment?
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23:35 <michalrus> Yes, yes, I’m aware of that. :) Let’s say the signature is [s -> a -> (s, Maybe b)], and state is s.
23:35 <jle`> for addN n = (\x -> x + n), n is a part of the colsure/'state' of 'addN 10'
23:35 <michalrus> How can I have different s for each function?
23:36 sellout- joined
23:36 <jle`> michalrus: what are you planning on doing with this list?
23:36 <`Guest03> michalrus: existential quantification
23:36 <glguy> michalrus: You can have: data T a b = MkT (a -> (Maybe b, a -> T a b))
23:36 <jle`> michalrus: how would you even interact with each type?
23:37 <jle`> er, with each function
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23:37 <jle`> if the state type is opaque, how would you get a state to give each function?
23:37 <glguy> or rather: data T a b = MkT (a -> (b, a -> T a b)) -- If you want b to be Maybe Something, that's fine
23:37 <michalrus> jle`: I want to run each function until one matches and returns a Just b, and return this (potentially) matched Maybe b.
23:37 <jle`> michalrus: but how can you run the function without giving an 's'
23:37 <michalrus> Nice, thank you for all the replies, I know what to google/hoogle now! (:
23:38 ludat joined
23:38 <jle`> if the functions are (s -> a -> (s, Maybe b)), and you want to 'run' it while only having an 'a', where do you get the 's' from?
23:38 <michalrus> jle`: the state would have to be somehow kept in the call site, yes…
23:38 <jle`> if the state is opaque to the call-site, then the state cannot be kept at the call site
23:38 <michalrus> :(
23:38 Gurkenglas_ joined
23:38 <jle`> what you can do is "store" an initial state with every function
23:38 <glguy> michalrus: No need to Google, I already wrote the type that does that
23:39 <jle`> but that's basically the same thing as my 'addN' example up there
23:39 <michalrus> glguy: I’ll read about MkT, thank you. 🙇
23:39 <jle`> useBoolState b = (\x -> if b then x else negate x)
23:40 <jle`> useIntState n = (\x -> x + n)
23:40 <glguy> michalrus: No, there's nothing to read. MkT is being defined on that line
23:40 <michalrus> Ah!
23:40 <kuribas> michalrus: each function in the list updates the state?
23:40 <jle`> you can now store `useBoolState True` and `useIntState 10` inside the same list
23:40 <michalrus> kuribas: yes.
23:41 <glguy> michalrus: Do all the functions share the same 's' value? does the output of one become the input of another?
23:41 <michalrus> No, they’re completely separate.
23:41 <jle`> :t let useBoolState b = (\x -> if b then x else negate x); useIntState n = (\x -> x + n) in [useBoolState True, useIntState 10]
23:41 <lambdabot> Num a => [a -> a]
23:41 <jle`> i've stored functions with different types in their closures in the same list, there
23:42 <jle`> (it's also not clear what you want to do with the 's' in the result of each function)
23:42 <jle`> what's the bigger problem you want to solve here?
23:42 <michalrus> jle`: store it somehow, for future calls of that particular function. (:
23:42 <jle`> this sounds like it might be a clear XY problem kind of situation
23:43 <michalrus> Haha, OK. I’ll explain it more widely.
23:43 defaultnick_ joined
23:44 <jle`> there's something you might be able to do with the 'auto' library that might let you do exactly what you described, but i'm not sure if you really want what you're asking for
23:45 <jle`> but the `Auto' a b` type represents an `(s -> a -> (b, s))` function paired with an initial state 's'
23:45 <jle`> that's opaque to the caller
23:45 <jle`> and you can "run" it to get the resulting 'b', and also a new Auto with an updated state
23:45 dedgrant joined
23:46 <jle`> (it's also Mealy from the machines library)
23:47 <jle`> so your type might be runAllAutos :: a -> [Auto' a b] -> ([b], [Auto' a b]) -- the Auto's in the resulting list have the updated states
23:48 <ezyang> Flipping between [] and Maybe is surprisingly annoying
23:50 <michalrus> jle`: Bigger picture: I’ve got some `source :: IO Text` of, say, commands. Now, I want to have different handlers for these commands defined as `Text -> IO (Maybe SomeResult)`. If a handler returns Nothing, it means that the next handler should be used. If Just, just return that result. But I’d also want each handler to have access to its state that it can read and modify between calls. Now, since it’s
23:50 <michalrus> all happening in IO, I could probably store the state somewhere in IO, but there should be a better way…
23:50 <jle`> michalrus: if ti's all happening in IO then it's probably simplest to just have an IORef in the closure of the function
23:51 <michalrus> Call site has source, list of handlers and is supposed to return IO (Maybe SomeResult).
23:51 <michalrus> Yeah, but what if it wasn’t? (:
23:51 <jle`> if you're stuck with the idea of "state", then each call has to return a new list of functions
23:51 <glguy> ezyang: That reminds me that you can switch between Maybe and [] nicely in list comprehensions (with enough extensions), e.g. [ x | x <- [1..10], odd x, then listToMaybe, x > 3]
23:52 <jle`> and you would run the query on that new list every time
23:52 <jle`> the new list of functions would have the updated states in their closures
23:52 <jle`> libraries like 'auto'/'machines' make it a little more easy to implement state-updating closures like this, but there's no way getting around returning a new list every time you run it
23:53 <jle`> (if you're sticking with "pure" queries/handlers)
23:53 <glguy> also, libraries like auto and machines are not the place to start when getting stuck on questions like this
23:53 <ezyang> glguy: Hmm
23:53 bjz joined
23:54 <jle`> if you're already in IO then you can just have the IORef in the closure to the function, and you have an easy solution
23:54 <michalrus> Mhm. :) OK, thank you, all. I’ll read carefully through the log once more.
23:54 <ezyang> I don't really want to bust out comprehensions though, because the code is pointless
23:54 <Zemyla> You know, I think I have figured out the contravariant equivalent of Monad.join.
23:54 <jle`> but yeah, if you're not in IO, you have to be able to create closure-updating functions and return new functions every time you run them
23:55 <jle`> you can create them from scratch using lambda abstractions (they're not that hard), but there are libraries that make it simpler, yes.
23:55 <lyxia> Zemyla: what is it
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23:56 <jle`> data MyHiddenState a b = forall s. MkHS s (s -> a -> (b, s))
23:56 <Zemyla> lyxia: contrajoin :: f (f (f a)) -> f a
23:57 <jle`> runMyHiddenState x (MkHS s0 f) = let (y, s') = f s0 x in (y, MkHS s' f)
23:57 <jle`> runMyHiddenState :: a -> MyHiddenState a b -> (b, MyHiddenState a b)
23:58 <jle`> the type of the state isn't in the type of MyHiddenState, so you can store MyHiddenState's of different internal state types in the same list
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23:59 <Zemyla> It's basically triple negation elimination.
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